I respond to a lobster fisherman’s question about why he gets restless in relationships. I yammer on about the difference between a “romantic” approach to loving women vs. an “epic” approach, and how each can play out in terms of loving her righteously.
Glad that you are enjoying the Athletic brew. I tried their stuff again and I think it's gotten better. I know you tried Surreal and didn't love it... If you like IPA you might also try Barrel Brothers -- they make some interesting NA's.
I noticed that in your mention of Athletic you say sort of wonderingly that it has "very little" alcohol.
For clarity, it's worth emphasizing that 0.5% alcohol is the standard for all NA drinks (at least in the U.S.), and it is effectively "alcohol free," because (as detailed in the article I share below)
Many foods contain a similar amount of alcohol
You can’t get drunk on 0.5% drinks
Many countries consider 0.5% ABV as alcohol-free
Basically the most common question amongst new teetotalers is "is NA beer _really_ alcohol free?" Being clear about this helps to prevent the very common misconception that 0.5% isn't _really_ alcohol free.
The irony is that I get carded at Safeway when I buy this stuff, and the young guy who was bagging my groceries told me he isn't even allowed to touch the six-pack because he's under 18. America is insane.
I've tried a few more of Athletic's brews, and I have to say that I think they've cracked the code. At least to my taste, they really nail it. Merry Xmas, Bowen.
Totally. Same here at BevMo. Dipshits. Everything's fine in 'Merica.
Yeah some of Athletic's new varieties are really good. Btw, for an NA alternative to an amaro, something I really love -- try this Pathfinder stuff, it's amazing http://drinkthepathfinder.com
I love the breakdown on Romantic & Epic, that's really helpful and interesting. It feels like you're talking about the shadow of Romantic. I felt very "romantic" for much of my life, strongly pulled by the force of "love" and desire to merge with someone, and I did certainly embody a lot of the shadow that you talk about, as that force wears thin, the person begins to seem lacking—although, as you point out, the flaw is more in the eye of the beholder than the character of beloved. More recently, as I've felt more whole on my own, I've been looking less for women to make me feel that way, and been able to come to enjoy and appreciate the Epic that has been with me all along. In recent years I've felt more and more how much I love all my sisters, some or many of whom have been lovers. As you also noted of your personal experience, they have given me far more than I deserved. Or maybe not "more than I deserved," but just that their generosity exceeded my own, and that maybe they knew or sensed something that I hadn't quite yet, myself. Credit and blessings to them all.
Do you think there’s a “mirror image” of this for women? I guess the romantic woman is looking for her Prince Charming (my iPhone doesn’t allow me NOT to capitalize those two words!!! How annoying!!). What would an epic woman be like? Would a different adjective work better? What does a women who love men righteously look like? (I imagine her as somehow maternal ... surely a cultural bias of mine)
I'd love to hear other women's thoughts on this, but from my own experience, I think there's a significant overlap between women's love/respect/compassion for men and a desire to be of service to men. Of course, there is cultural indoctrination at work here (as always), but I think that if the stigma were removed from sexual expression, a lot of women would use their sexual power to help, encourage, and comfort men a lot more than they feel they can now, where this would be misinterpreted and shamed. I think the "vestal virgin" and "sacred whore" archetypes are expressions of this sort of energy.
You mention the Toba explosion regularly. Did you know that the caldera became a yawning lake, with an island in the middle named Samosir? It was occupied by animist people until Christians came. It's also covered with magic mushrooms, which are sold in every restaurant in the tourist region. It was a point on the hippy trail back in the day, according to locals there. Nearly everyone there plays music and sings beautifully. I can't recommend it enough. Magical place.
Mark Vicente talks about the turrets guy who he knows, of course. He talks about The Vow episode by episode on his podcast WTF Is on My Mind.
You were a little soft on this.
You said, some people think it was a sex cult some think it a personal growth group, no mention of Keith Raniere sentenced to like 120 years in prison.
Great to hear you back at the mic. This convo reminds me of something I'd been meaning to write in to ask you about: There's a Jungian view towards relationship that I think could be clumsily summarized as: A certain kind of romance has emerged and become dominant in the last few generations which has almost supplanted religion, and the expectation and experience is losing or completing oneself in the "perfect" other. If we hold on to this view, we're doomed to disappointment a year or few into the relationship as shift from our projection to seeing them as a person (and sometimes hostility). According to this paradigm, acknowledging that in intimate relationship we are often projecting (whether positive or negative projection, somewhat unavoidable), but there is a special unique soul behind that and dealing with the same struggle on their end.
I don't think this is at all at odds with your explanation, just a slightly different lens talking about the same phenomena. Curious what you think, especially since you and Anya are interested in Jung and I remember her mentioning some of Robert A Johnson's other books.
Good books on this are:
We - Robert A Johnson (I picked this up because it was strongly recommended by Andrew Weil)
Eden Project, In Search of the Magical Other - James Hollis
Glad that you are enjoying the Athletic brew. I tried their stuff again and I think it's gotten better. I know you tried Surreal and didn't love it... If you like IPA you might also try Barrel Brothers -- they make some interesting NA's.
I noticed that in your mention of Athletic you say sort of wonderingly that it has "very little" alcohol.
For clarity, it's worth emphasizing that 0.5% alcohol is the standard for all NA drinks (at least in the U.S.), and it is effectively "alcohol free," because (as detailed in the article I share below)
Many foods contain a similar amount of alcohol
You can’t get drunk on 0.5% drinks
Many countries consider 0.5% ABV as alcohol-free
Basically the most common question amongst new teetotalers is "is NA beer _really_ alcohol free?" Being clear about this helps to prevent the very common misconception that 0.5% isn't _really_ alcohol free.
https://steadydrinker.com/articles/is-0-5-alcohol-free/
The irony is that I get carded at Safeway when I buy this stuff, and the young guy who was bagging my groceries told me he isn't even allowed to touch the six-pack because he's under 18. America is insane.
I've tried a few more of Athletic's brews, and I have to say that I think they've cracked the code. At least to my taste, they really nail it. Merry Xmas, Bowen.
Totally. Same here at BevMo. Dipshits. Everything's fine in 'Merica.
Yeah some of Athletic's new varieties are really good. Btw, for an NA alternative to an amaro, something I really love -- try this Pathfinder stuff, it's amazing http://drinkthepathfinder.com
Merry Christmas!
I love the breakdown on Romantic & Epic, that's really helpful and interesting. It feels like you're talking about the shadow of Romantic. I felt very "romantic" for much of my life, strongly pulled by the force of "love" and desire to merge with someone, and I did certainly embody a lot of the shadow that you talk about, as that force wears thin, the person begins to seem lacking—although, as you point out, the flaw is more in the eye of the beholder than the character of beloved. More recently, as I've felt more whole on my own, I've been looking less for women to make me feel that way, and been able to come to enjoy and appreciate the Epic that has been with me all along. In recent years I've felt more and more how much I love all my sisters, some or many of whom have been lovers. As you also noted of your personal experience, they have given me far more than I deserved. Or maybe not "more than I deserved," but just that their generosity exceeded my own, and that maybe they knew or sensed something that I hadn't quite yet, myself. Credit and blessings to them all.
Do you think there’s a “mirror image” of this for women? I guess the romantic woman is looking for her Prince Charming (my iPhone doesn’t allow me NOT to capitalize those two words!!! How annoying!!). What would an epic woman be like? Would a different adjective work better? What does a women who love men righteously look like? (I imagine her as somehow maternal ... surely a cultural bias of mine)
I'd love to hear other women's thoughts on this, but from my own experience, I think there's a significant overlap between women's love/respect/compassion for men and a desire to be of service to men. Of course, there is cultural indoctrination at work here (as always), but I think that if the stigma were removed from sexual expression, a lot of women would use their sexual power to help, encourage, and comfort men a lot more than they feel they can now, where this would be misinterpreted and shamed. I think the "vestal virgin" and "sacred whore" archetypes are expressions of this sort of energy.
How interesting!! Is there any further reading or author or thinker you can point me to on the topic of these two archetypes?
The Sacred Prostitute by Nancy Qualls-Corbett is a great place to start!
Thanks a lot Anya!! Gonna start it right now!!
Omg it doesn’t exist for kindle or audible! I’ll have to wait until someone comes to Perú from the States! Not surprised that it is so niche though...
If we put it in the mail, would it ever get to you? If so, drop me a line at thatchrisryan@gmail.com, and we'll call it a Christmas gift.
(Thanks in advance if you can and don’t worry if too busy. Happy holidays!!!!!)
You mention the Toba explosion regularly. Did you know that the caldera became a yawning lake, with an island in the middle named Samosir? It was occupied by animist people until Christians came. It's also covered with magic mushrooms, which are sold in every restaurant in the tourist region. It was a point on the hippy trail back in the day, according to locals there. Nearly everyone there plays music and sings beautifully. I can't recommend it enough. Magical place.
I was there in '88 or so. Sumatra was a pretty wild place. Spent a couple of months on the island.
I almost teared up a bit in the end when Chris was speaking about his care and approach to women.
I hope every man can get to a place with that kind of love.
Mark Vicente talks about the turrets guy who he knows, of course. He talks about The Vow episode by episode on his podcast WTF Is on My Mind.
You were a little soft on this.
You said, some people think it was a sex cult some think it a personal growth group, no mention of Keith Raniere sentenced to like 120 years in prison.
Whatever
https://www.markvicente.com/podcast
Oh shit! Now you’re pitching alcohol. Ha! Ha!
Great to hear you back at the mic. This convo reminds me of something I'd been meaning to write in to ask you about: There's a Jungian view towards relationship that I think could be clumsily summarized as: A certain kind of romance has emerged and become dominant in the last few generations which has almost supplanted religion, and the expectation and experience is losing or completing oneself in the "perfect" other. If we hold on to this view, we're doomed to disappointment a year or few into the relationship as shift from our projection to seeing them as a person (and sometimes hostility). According to this paradigm, acknowledging that in intimate relationship we are often projecting (whether positive or negative projection, somewhat unavoidable), but there is a special unique soul behind that and dealing with the same struggle on their end.
I don't think this is at all at odds with your explanation, just a slightly different lens talking about the same phenomena. Curious what you think, especially since you and Anya are interested in Jung and I remember her mentioning some of Robert A Johnson's other books.
Good books on this are:
We - Robert A Johnson (I picked this up because it was strongly recommended by Andrew Weil)
Eden Project, In Search of the Magical Other - James Hollis