Here’s the September thread, where you can discuss anything and everything with anyone and everyone. It’ll be for supporting members only for the first week or so, then I’ll open it up to the riff-raff. Here’s a question to get the ball rolling: What are your non-negotiables in relationships? What (if anything) isn’t up for adjustment or forgiveness?
pushing 50, harder than before. was: (+)fit, then realized we're all just meat; plus, my knees have become quite cranky. (-)smoking/drugs, now there's understanding the occasional self medicating weed or micro-dosing. (+)intelligence, WHERE ARE MY KEYS, oh i installed keyless locks and dont own a car. (+) reading, well not THAT book, it sucks. (+)sexual, then i'm like yawn 1st thing in the morn, i promise. (-)bigotry, then woke went a little rabid...
only non negotiables, i guess, flexibility and attempts at rational conflict resolution. my needs and desires will continue as a moving target
I am currently reading The Satanic Verses by Salmon Rushdie and he inserts himself into his own novel (albeit it in a very small role of a peripheral character). This got me wondering if there are other authors who have done this. The only one I can think of is Kurt Vonnegut appearing as himself in Breakfast of Champions. Does anyone know of other authors that have included themselves in their own novel?
Quick question before I add to the thread on non-negotiables... I think it was around last summer, maybe the year before, Chris had a sponsorship from an online platform providing sexual education. I bought one-time life membership and can't seem to find it. Anyone remember the name??
My stance on non-negotiables has changed a bit, especially when in the first few months of courtship. I used to hold firm boundaries around them, but found that was limiting my opportunities for finding meaningful relationships, while also realizing that some of my non-negotiables were a projection of things inside me.
My number 1 non-negotiable used to "fuck the chase, find someone that runs with you". While I still want aspects of that in the woman I'm seeing, I realized that a lot of these feelings I had were rooted in my own loneliness - something that goes back to my childhood. I had too many expectations that we should be reaching out to each other equally. So I would reach out to try to "keep the spark alive" , but in reality I was looking for attention and acceptance. I was totally unaware that I was clinging, which is something that I loathe and would never think applied to me. But it did in the way that I was doing it.
Earlier in the summer, Chris had mentioned the book "Open to Desire" by Mark Epstein. I recently started reading it and has totally changed my relationship with desire. Just like any other emotion, it's something that we need to have a grasp on in order to enjoy it. I really related to one of Mark's therapy patient's "Kyra". She also struggled with loneliness and similar to her breakthrough, I was putting my partners first while not wanting to be second. The loneliness is being close to oneself. Kyra realized that the love she received back from her husband did not have to be proportional to the what she put in. This hit me because I had had a form of this realization before reading this that really helped the relationship with the woman that I'm currently seeing. I became aware of the need that I was projecting and started approaching her more from a place of want and healthy desire. Just going for it and the reception has been incredible. I now love and embrace the chase.
I've also become much more accepting of and enjoying the space in between during these initial months, rather than catastrophizing and assuming she's losing interest. Now the space is something that I want to continue to maintain the element of mystery and strong passion that exists between us. This book along with my first time in therapy has been a monumental shift for me and I honestly couldn't be happier, regardless the outcome... I feel free.
I highly recommend Open to Desire for anyone looking to have a better understanding and relationship with their desires.
On several episodes Chris has mentioned a Rick Beato interview where a producer said if a person can tell him which three notes are their favorite he knows they have a chance at being a musician. I think for next month's open thread Chris should ask "What are your three favorite notes?" If he does, I'll tell you mine if you tell me yours.
Hello Chris and the Tangentially Speaking community,
I have a comprehensive list of non-negotiables. I had the unfortunate and fortunate experience of learning many of my non-negotiable lessons during my first marriage.
Here are my non-negotiables:
Effective Emotional Communication: The ability to express emotions calmly and engage in constructive conversations during challenging moments.
Absence of Verbal or Physical Abuse: Any form of resorting to insults, snapping, or physical violence is completely unacceptable.
Accountability and Personal Growth: I expect a genuine apology and a commitment to personal development when someone errors. I want to see it demonstrated in actions and behaviors going forward, not just promises or words.
Respect for All Beings: A zero-tolerance policy for anyone who engages in harmful behaviors towards children, animals, or vulnerable individuals, including spanking, hitting, kicking, whipping, or screaming/yelling.
Freedom and Trust: Not possessive or controlling, allowing their partner the freedom to maintain relationships with friends, travel independently, or pursue a professional life without excessive monitoring or jealousy.
Confidentiality and Respect: Personal experiences shared within the confines of our relationship must remain confidential and never be weaponized, even after a breakup.
Avoidance of Insecurity Projection: A partner who manages their insecurities without projecting them onto others.
Financial Responsibility: Financial maturity and prioritization of responsible planning for the future over immediate material desires.
Lastly, someone who is actively working on themselves at all stages of life.
At the risk of sounding a bit new-age, occult, or plain loopy, I recently had a bizarre lucid dream experience that I'd like to share. It left me with a lot of questions and a lot of reasons to go down yet another spiritual rabbit hole.
I’m living in Indonesia right now and there’s quite a lot of blue lotus flower around. Dried flowers for teas and tinctures are readily available in little herb shops, advertised as a sleep aid, anxiety reliever and aphrodisiac. I’d spoken to a couple of people about the potential for blue lotus to enhance lucid dreaming so, having dabbled with dream meditation, dream journalling and Onnit-style dream enhancers before, I decided to try it out.
I’ll omit my chosen method of consumption, but I can confirm that the aphrodisiacal (lucky I’m here with my girlfriend!) and dream enhancing qualities are relatively powerful. On one night in particular I had what I think was probably my first proper lucid dream. In the dream I was walking through an area that resembled my old university quadrangle or common area, and suddenly I paused right in the middle, looked at my feet, then at my hands, then said out loud, “shit! I’m dreaming, and I know it!”.
After this realisation I continued on through the dreamscape and looked around for people who were also in on what was happening. I walked for some time and soon resigned, rather solipsistically, that I was the only one aware that we were all in a dream.
However, after making my way up a staircase (and this is the crux of the dream), I looked over at a bench table and saw a woman grinning at me. She knew for sure. I yelled over at her, “do you know?!”, to which she replied, “yes I know!”. I inquired again, “seriously, you know we’re in a dream?”. She began laughing hysterically, leaned over the table and said “YES!”. And at that I woke up.
Now above all my burning question about this lucid dream experience is: could it be possible that that woman was another person out there, also lucid dreaming, and our dreams had somehow intersected?
Before you accuse me of watching Inception or some other sci-fi movie too many times, I should say I generally consider myself a skeptic. Therefore my knee jerk reaction is to reduce the experience to a particularly powerful projection of my subconscious thanks to a deep REM sleep, some naturally occurring tryptamine and some other neurochemistry. But… this encounter was almost too uncanny to pass it off as that.
If I think back to a more recent podcast Chris did with Stanley Krippner (I notice now he has actually chimed in on the September thread!), I remember him saying that the only supernatural phenomena he is open to is remote viewing. There’s definitely evidence for remote viewing and I think plenty of adults have their own anecdotal evidence.
If I pair remote viewing with another previously new-age but increasingly credible suggestion of ‘universal consciousness’, could it be possible for peoples dreams to intersect from great distances? There are other things I could go on about, shared ayahuasca experiences and so forth, but I think I’ve made my ponderance clear.
Cheers to all TS community and thanks for the open thread Chris. Would love to hear from anyone who has some comments about my story!
Today is 11 September. Apart from being the 50th anniversary of the coup that overthrew Salvador Allende, it's the 22nd anniversary of You Know What. As ever, I'm struck by how little people have learned from that event, by their lack of curiosity about what actually happened. But then I guess we could say the same of the covid pandemic — we humans simply aren't evolved to grasp the big picture of anything, so we constantly allow what we truly value in life to be undermined. Hell, we get manipulated into Begging for this to be done.
This thread contains several travel reports. I just returned from five days in Deepest France, in outback provinces like Lozère, Aveyron, Cantal & whatnot. Ignored media of all types & just took a warm bath in provincialism. France is such a wonderfully diverse place for its size, & that south-central part is gorgeous, rugged, small-townish. I guess this is a tip of sorts.
If you believe that everything you experience is a reflection of yourself, then the list becomes very small for me. We project our likes and dislikes upon the world which changes what is. The goal in a relationship for me is unconditional love which will allow you to accept the partner as they are.
LOVED the latest episode with the tribal elders. I'm sick of people who are assure they're right (ALSO A RELATIONSHIP RED LINE). With wisdom/age/experience comes the ability to know that you don't know and be alright with that. The same way you can walk up to someone and say hi and know that you're cool and worth meeting but also know that it's perfectly fine if that person doesn't see it. I wish the self-assured generation of presenters/podcasters/entertainers would shift to that mindset. I'm doing my best to raise a son that can be sure of himself and that things will be alright if he keeps walking in a direction without being sure that he's right or where that will lead him. It's a difficult thing to do!
I'm not answering the proposed topic of discussion for this month, but merely stating that I am about to travel for the first time in 5 years (COVID, life things) and am extremely excited. Myself and my partner are going through India to Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan and Kazakhstan. Has anyone here been to this region? If my camera doesn't get stolen I will have some great pictures on my Substack later on in the year, with some stories hopefully less traumatic than the one I wrote about in Myanmar.
Good question. I am in my first relationship and sort of in the process of figuring out what my answers to these questions are.
I'd say that one of the books that has really influenced how I make lifestyle decisions is Early Retirement Extreme by Jacob Lund Fisker, and that I would want them to be on board with that basic philosophy, as I think that lifestyle compatibility is an important requirement for a successful relationship.
Authenticity and physical health is non-negotiable for me. There is nothing more frustrating than someone who pretends to be that perfect match, then begins to reveal themselves after you have invested emotionally. For example.... someone who loves backpacking with you, then once you become invested emotionally you find yourself asking, "I thought you loved backpacking"? I have never understood the inauthenticity that comes with the "honeymoon" phase. It's manipulation at its worst!
Second is physical health, it may sound crass and selfish, but if you want to be my lifetime partner, I want the best of you for a lifetime. If you do not take care of yourself physically, that doesn't mean you need to be an athlete. However, I do not want to be saddled with taking care of you, or missing out on experiences because you are not fit enough, or have a lifestyle connected disease. I knew a guy who left his wife after she was diagnosed with lung cancer, she was a habitual smoker. Everyone said he was a dick for leaving, I say he was a dick for not leaving sooner.
Has anyone done any traveling lately? I just booked my flight to Spain for 2 full weeks in November. I’ve never been. I’m flying into Madrid, staying there for a few days, then I’ll be in Valencia for a week. If I have time I might go down to Marbella. I’ve watched lots of travel videos especially on food. I’m a foodie. Btw, check out “Antoanetta Now” on YT. She’s a bit posh, but her videos are well done, informative, and she has a number of videos comparing the US to Valencia and other European cities. I saw her dipping a homemade Chuuro in rich creamy Horchata. It looked so good! Nothing like the watered down over sugared Horchata in the states
At this point, authenticity. Of course the lack of authenticity isn’t always so easy to tease out before you’ve already traveled some distance down the road with someone.
As someone who doesn't want kids, the desire or plan to have children is a deal breaker for me. While harder to quantify, the person I'd be with would need to have a healthy relationship with gray area thinking, uncertainty, and curiosity (as opposed to being primarily rigid, certain, and closed-minded). Also an ability to be honest when it's uncomfortable, especially when it's uncomfortable. And no cigarettes smokers!
A deal-breaker for me is someone who gets cosmetic surgery and has that "plastic" look to their face. I find women attractive who look natural. I have seen women in their early 20's with lip fillers and botox who are unrecognizable from the way they looked just a few years before.
I don't know if this is a deal-breaker per se, but I cannot imagine being partnered with someone who does not like to learn or does not have a natural curiosity about the world around them.
When I was in my mid 20s I was in a relationship with someone who had anger issues and frequently employed "silent treatment". A lot of people use that term when their partner simply isn't talking or communicating much due to conflict. What I'm referring to is the practice of pointedly ignoring ones partner, going to far as to pretend they aren't even there when they're try to speak to you. It reeks of contempt.
After that relationship I decided that one single instance of that behavior would be a dealbreaker for me.
As someone who is NOT currently in a committed relationship, and is not looking to be in one, I believe non-negotiables still exist even for temporary arrangements. Mine would be (1) the way this person treats other people...service workers, their family members, exes, etc and (2) dismissive behavior - i.e. name calling, eye rolling, put-downs etc. , whether in casual conversation or escalated argument.
But now that I think about it, these would be my non-negs for just about anyone I'd want in my life in any capacity.... so generally just don't be a douchebag 🙂.
I guess the tricky part is you often don't find out about a person's gross behavior or true character until well into a relationship.
It is a tough question. Sometimes what has been "non negotiable" with one partner, with another hasn't seemed to be such an issue.
Another thing is that even with the same person/partner(s), what is negotiable and what is not can change over time. Perhaps these things have to do more with how our perception of that person changes over time.
Maybe there are things that, no matter how much you like or love someone, are not negotiable (abuse, infidelity, indifferece, neglect, etc.). And maybe what we sometimes say 'is not to be negotiated', we are just saying it in the spur of the moment, and as situations occur we make decisions as we experience them (even when we have lived similar situations before). Then there is the issue of manipulation - which takes the issue to a darker turn.
Thanks Chris, great idea. Something a partner and I have been discussing in detail of late.
I (51m US/SE in DE and international for 20+ years) start with "the ways friends treat each other" as a baseline, a friend doesnt lie, steal, or manipulate. Any relationship that does things that are "unfriendly" in this way is over. Then, non-negotiables are pretty easy and work more like needs and boundaries.
Example(s)
Me time and space:
I need solitude to recharge and regroup after the continuious assault of my job, and life in general. I once had a partner who would follow me to the toilet and corner me to talk with me about whatever she wanted; i was a captive audience. This became a boundary because it was quite the violation of my time and space, now nearly 20 years later, I make sure that I have a space for myself in any situation that I can 'retreat' into, if i dont have that, the situation isnt for me.
Non-Accountability:
A pattern I'm attempting to remove from my life is the slippery non-accountability that some folks will push into a situation via transference to some external thing that has no agency in the situation. If we agree on a thing, I will do my part and I expect to trust my partner will do theirs; many times in the past I had to accept a lesser sitaution because of the transfer of accountability to a thing not being done to something not related. Yeah yeah, shit happens, but when it becomes a habbit and i find myself looking at a couple of broken agreements and the person who screwed up isnt owning that screw up, but instead transfering it elsewhere, I get gone like a ghost. Swedish culture in some context may call this "time optimism", and i lump the chronic inability to manage time into this, as it is usually a root cause of the sitution.
Negation of Experience:
I have had some gnarly personal experiences that sent me home with a CPTSD dignosis and a head full of frustration. Many times when I've shared my experiences, it has been negated, usually with thought terminating cliches intended to get me to question myself, vaules and actions. I used to enjoy fighting these people when i was younger and more foolish, now i simply drop those fuckers like the hot turds they are.
Again coming from a 20 year old so I’m interested to see if anyone agrees or disagrees. Getting married next summer. It’s scary. But I’ve been with her for over 5 years and I have never wanted or felt someone’s presence more than hers. We perfectly understand each others wants and needs and something we’ve been working on a lot the past 2 years is the idea of percentage in a relationship. It’s not 50/50. I’ve learned that is a ridiculous expectation from either side. It’s more, I get home from work and she is at a 10% overall. That means I have to come up with the other 90%, even if I had a tough day too. And since I’m willing to do that she is willing to do the same when I am at 10%. But when we are both at 10% we have to figure out how to function at 20% and still love, respect, and care for each other.
All relationships have arguments and that’s fair. We all have our moments where we are upset and can say nasty things. I had been in a previous relationship where when we would get into arguments she would swear and name call. I hated it as it brought bad childhood memories.
When I started dating my partner (now wife), we got into our first “fight” and she was starting to say somethings, I quickly through the “Time Out” sign.
I explained to her that disagreements were ok but we needed rules.
For me I did Not want to be in a relationship where nasty name calling or swearing at the other person was acceptable. This only leads to not dealing with the issue at hand and simply fuels the argument.
She took some time and thought about it and agreed. She told me what she wanted and her triggers and we quickly agreed on our “rules”.
For me this was non negotiable and she agreed it was for her as well.
We do get into disagreements, but I’m thankful that we do it in a respectful manner and we have a great relationship.
Set boundaries, words do hurt and they carry memories.
My experience over the years has taught me the value of curiosity in relationships. If we remain curious about our partner's feelings and thinking, we will avoid reactive responses, which may leave us with regrets for what we say and do to our loved one.
Most of us have heard the saying, "turn the other cheek." This parable is open to different interpretations. My interpretation is that it means a non-reactive response.
A non-reactive response is a more logical and thoughtful response, which leads to much greater intimacy in a relationship. When we are reactive, our thinking shuts down and insults are much more likely to happen. When your loved one is angry at you, I. have found that it worked best when I was curious about what I did that hurt him so much and how can I do better.
Not being up for adjustment or forgiveness is a no go for me. In a loving relationship, once deep caring has been established, the primary consideration should be the love - so that problems become secondary - in the sense that listening and caring for concerns and being honest with each other become primary. This way, you care for the love.
pushing 50, harder than before. was: (+)fit, then realized we're all just meat; plus, my knees have become quite cranky. (-)smoking/drugs, now there's understanding the occasional self medicating weed or micro-dosing. (+)intelligence, WHERE ARE MY KEYS, oh i installed keyless locks and dont own a car. (+) reading, well not THAT book, it sucks. (+)sexual, then i'm like yawn 1st thing in the morn, i promise. (-)bigotry, then woke went a little rabid...
only non negotiables, i guess, flexibility and attempts at rational conflict resolution. my needs and desires will continue as a moving target
Sense of humour and honesty. If you don't laugh, not much point. Pretty simple. The rest I can negotiate and give a little wiggle room
I am currently reading The Satanic Verses by Salmon Rushdie and he inserts himself into his own novel (albeit it in a very small role of a peripheral character). This got me wondering if there are other authors who have done this. The only one I can think of is Kurt Vonnegut appearing as himself in Breakfast of Champions. Does anyone know of other authors that have included themselves in their own novel?
@ChrisRyan. Have you met Wonder Bob yet? Met him in July 2020. Interesting Crestone local.
Chris, you're the man! Thank you!
Quick question before I add to the thread on non-negotiables... I think it was around last summer, maybe the year before, Chris had a sponsorship from an online platform providing sexual education. I bought one-time life membership and can't seem to find it. Anyone remember the name??
My stance on non-negotiables has changed a bit, especially when in the first few months of courtship. I used to hold firm boundaries around them, but found that was limiting my opportunities for finding meaningful relationships, while also realizing that some of my non-negotiables were a projection of things inside me.
My number 1 non-negotiable used to "fuck the chase, find someone that runs with you". While I still want aspects of that in the woman I'm seeing, I realized that a lot of these feelings I had were rooted in my own loneliness - something that goes back to my childhood. I had too many expectations that we should be reaching out to each other equally. So I would reach out to try to "keep the spark alive" , but in reality I was looking for attention and acceptance. I was totally unaware that I was clinging, which is something that I loathe and would never think applied to me. But it did in the way that I was doing it.
Earlier in the summer, Chris had mentioned the book "Open to Desire" by Mark Epstein. I recently started reading it and has totally changed my relationship with desire. Just like any other emotion, it's something that we need to have a grasp on in order to enjoy it. I really related to one of Mark's therapy patient's "Kyra". She also struggled with loneliness and similar to her breakthrough, I was putting my partners first while not wanting to be second. The loneliness is being close to oneself. Kyra realized that the love she received back from her husband did not have to be proportional to the what she put in. This hit me because I had had a form of this realization before reading this that really helped the relationship with the woman that I'm currently seeing. I became aware of the need that I was projecting and started approaching her more from a place of want and healthy desire. Just going for it and the reception has been incredible. I now love and embrace the chase.
I've also become much more accepting of and enjoying the space in between during these initial months, rather than catastrophizing and assuming she's losing interest. Now the space is something that I want to continue to maintain the element of mystery and strong passion that exists between us. This book along with my first time in therapy has been a monumental shift for me and I honestly couldn't be happier, regardless the outcome... I feel free.
I highly recommend Open to Desire for anyone looking to have a better understanding and relationship with their desires.
On several episodes Chris has mentioned a Rick Beato interview where a producer said if a person can tell him which three notes are their favorite he knows they have a chance at being a musician. I think for next month's open thread Chris should ask "What are your three favorite notes?" If he does, I'll tell you mine if you tell me yours.
Hello Chris and the Tangentially Speaking community,
I have a comprehensive list of non-negotiables. I had the unfortunate and fortunate experience of learning many of my non-negotiable lessons during my first marriage.
Here are my non-negotiables:
Effective Emotional Communication: The ability to express emotions calmly and engage in constructive conversations during challenging moments.
Absence of Verbal or Physical Abuse: Any form of resorting to insults, snapping, or physical violence is completely unacceptable.
Accountability and Personal Growth: I expect a genuine apology and a commitment to personal development when someone errors. I want to see it demonstrated in actions and behaviors going forward, not just promises or words.
Respect for All Beings: A zero-tolerance policy for anyone who engages in harmful behaviors towards children, animals, or vulnerable individuals, including spanking, hitting, kicking, whipping, or screaming/yelling.
Freedom and Trust: Not possessive or controlling, allowing their partner the freedom to maintain relationships with friends, travel independently, or pursue a professional life without excessive monitoring or jealousy.
Confidentiality and Respect: Personal experiences shared within the confines of our relationship must remain confidential and never be weaponized, even after a breakup.
Avoidance of Insecurity Projection: A partner who manages their insecurities without projecting them onto others.
Financial Responsibility: Financial maturity and prioritization of responsible planning for the future over immediate material desires.
Lastly, someone who is actively working on themselves at all stages of life.
At the risk of sounding a bit new-age, occult, or plain loopy, I recently had a bizarre lucid dream experience that I'd like to share. It left me with a lot of questions and a lot of reasons to go down yet another spiritual rabbit hole.
I’m living in Indonesia right now and there’s quite a lot of blue lotus flower around. Dried flowers for teas and tinctures are readily available in little herb shops, advertised as a sleep aid, anxiety reliever and aphrodisiac. I’d spoken to a couple of people about the potential for blue lotus to enhance lucid dreaming so, having dabbled with dream meditation, dream journalling and Onnit-style dream enhancers before, I decided to try it out.
I’ll omit my chosen method of consumption, but I can confirm that the aphrodisiacal (lucky I’m here with my girlfriend!) and dream enhancing qualities are relatively powerful. On one night in particular I had what I think was probably my first proper lucid dream. In the dream I was walking through an area that resembled my old university quadrangle or common area, and suddenly I paused right in the middle, looked at my feet, then at my hands, then said out loud, “shit! I’m dreaming, and I know it!”.
After this realisation I continued on through the dreamscape and looked around for people who were also in on what was happening. I walked for some time and soon resigned, rather solipsistically, that I was the only one aware that we were all in a dream.
However, after making my way up a staircase (and this is the crux of the dream), I looked over at a bench table and saw a woman grinning at me. She knew for sure. I yelled over at her, “do you know?!”, to which she replied, “yes I know!”. I inquired again, “seriously, you know we’re in a dream?”. She began laughing hysterically, leaned over the table and said “YES!”. And at that I woke up.
Now above all my burning question about this lucid dream experience is: could it be possible that that woman was another person out there, also lucid dreaming, and our dreams had somehow intersected?
Before you accuse me of watching Inception or some other sci-fi movie too many times, I should say I generally consider myself a skeptic. Therefore my knee jerk reaction is to reduce the experience to a particularly powerful projection of my subconscious thanks to a deep REM sleep, some naturally occurring tryptamine and some other neurochemistry. But… this encounter was almost too uncanny to pass it off as that.
If I think back to a more recent podcast Chris did with Stanley Krippner (I notice now he has actually chimed in on the September thread!), I remember him saying that the only supernatural phenomena he is open to is remote viewing. There’s definitely evidence for remote viewing and I think plenty of adults have their own anecdotal evidence.
If I pair remote viewing with another previously new-age but increasingly credible suggestion of ‘universal consciousness’, could it be possible for peoples dreams to intersect from great distances? There are other things I could go on about, shared ayahuasca experiences and so forth, but I think I’ve made my ponderance clear.
Cheers to all TS community and thanks for the open thread Chris. Would love to hear from anyone who has some comments about my story!
Hello Chris, How to send a audio hello message ?
Today is 11 September. Apart from being the 50th anniversary of the coup that overthrew Salvador Allende, it's the 22nd anniversary of You Know What. As ever, I'm struck by how little people have learned from that event, by their lack of curiosity about what actually happened. But then I guess we could say the same of the covid pandemic — we humans simply aren't evolved to grasp the big picture of anything, so we constantly allow what we truly value in life to be undermined. Hell, we get manipulated into Begging for this to be done.
This thread contains several travel reports. I just returned from five days in Deepest France, in outback provinces like Lozère, Aveyron, Cantal & whatnot. Ignored media of all types & just took a warm bath in provincialism. France is such a wonderfully diverse place for its size, & that south-central part is gorgeous, rugged, small-townish. I guess this is a tip of sorts.
If you believe that everything you experience is a reflection of yourself, then the list becomes very small for me. We project our likes and dislikes upon the world which changes what is. The goal in a relationship for me is unconditional love which will allow you to accept the partner as they are.
Chris,
LOVED the latest episode with the tribal elders. I'm sick of people who are assure they're right (ALSO A RELATIONSHIP RED LINE). With wisdom/age/experience comes the ability to know that you don't know and be alright with that. The same way you can walk up to someone and say hi and know that you're cool and worth meeting but also know that it's perfectly fine if that person doesn't see it. I wish the self-assured generation of presenters/podcasters/entertainers would shift to that mindset. I'm doing my best to raise a son that can be sure of himself and that things will be alright if he keeps walking in a direction without being sure that he's right or where that will lead him. It's a difficult thing to do!
I'm not answering the proposed topic of discussion for this month, but merely stating that I am about to travel for the first time in 5 years (COVID, life things) and am extremely excited. Myself and my partner are going through India to Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan and Kazakhstan. Has anyone here been to this region? If my camera doesn't get stolen I will have some great pictures on my Substack later on in the year, with some stories hopefully less traumatic than the one I wrote about in Myanmar.
Good question. I am in my first relationship and sort of in the process of figuring out what my answers to these questions are.
I'd say that one of the books that has really influenced how I make lifestyle decisions is Early Retirement Extreme by Jacob Lund Fisker, and that I would want them to be on board with that basic philosophy, as I think that lifestyle compatibility is an important requirement for a successful relationship.
Authenticity and physical health is non-negotiable for me. There is nothing more frustrating than someone who pretends to be that perfect match, then begins to reveal themselves after you have invested emotionally. For example.... someone who loves backpacking with you, then once you become invested emotionally you find yourself asking, "I thought you loved backpacking"? I have never understood the inauthenticity that comes with the "honeymoon" phase. It's manipulation at its worst!
Second is physical health, it may sound crass and selfish, but if you want to be my lifetime partner, I want the best of you for a lifetime. If you do not take care of yourself physically, that doesn't mean you need to be an athlete. However, I do not want to be saddled with taking care of you, or missing out on experiences because you are not fit enough, or have a lifestyle connected disease. I knew a guy who left his wife after she was diagnosed with lung cancer, she was a habitual smoker. Everyone said he was a dick for leaving, I say he was a dick for not leaving sooner.
Thoughts?
Has anyone done any traveling lately? I just booked my flight to Spain for 2 full weeks in November. I’ve never been. I’m flying into Madrid, staying there for a few days, then I’ll be in Valencia for a week. If I have time I might go down to Marbella. I’ve watched lots of travel videos especially on food. I’m a foodie. Btw, check out “Antoanetta Now” on YT. She’s a bit posh, but her videos are well done, informative, and she has a number of videos comparing the US to Valencia and other European cities. I saw her dipping a homemade Chuuro in rich creamy Horchata. It looked so good! Nothing like the watered down over sugared Horchata in the states
At this point, authenticity. Of course the lack of authenticity isn’t always so easy to tease out before you’ve already traveled some distance down the road with someone.
As someone who doesn't want kids, the desire or plan to have children is a deal breaker for me. While harder to quantify, the person I'd be with would need to have a healthy relationship with gray area thinking, uncertainty, and curiosity (as opposed to being primarily rigid, certain, and closed-minded). Also an ability to be honest when it's uncomfortable, especially when it's uncomfortable. And no cigarettes smokers!
A deal-breaker for me is someone who gets cosmetic surgery and has that "plastic" look to their face. I find women attractive who look natural. I have seen women in their early 20's with lip fillers and botox who are unrecognizable from the way they looked just a few years before.
I don't know if this is a deal-breaker per se, but I cannot imagine being partnered with someone who does not like to learn or does not have a natural curiosity about the world around them.
Probably someone who smokes cigarettes. I have nothing against people who smoke, I just don't want to be around it.
When I was in my mid 20s I was in a relationship with someone who had anger issues and frequently employed "silent treatment". A lot of people use that term when their partner simply isn't talking or communicating much due to conflict. What I'm referring to is the practice of pointedly ignoring ones partner, going to far as to pretend they aren't even there when they're try to speak to you. It reeks of contempt.
After that relationship I decided that one single instance of that behavior would be a dealbreaker for me.
My non-negotiable item: Read SEX AT DAWN by that natural philospher Christopher Ryan.
As someone who is NOT currently in a committed relationship, and is not looking to be in one, I believe non-negotiables still exist even for temporary arrangements. Mine would be (1) the way this person treats other people...service workers, their family members, exes, etc and (2) dismissive behavior - i.e. name calling, eye rolling, put-downs etc. , whether in casual conversation or escalated argument.
But now that I think about it, these would be my non-negs for just about anyone I'd want in my life in any capacity.... so generally just don't be a douchebag 🙂.
I guess the tricky part is you often don't find out about a person's gross behavior or true character until well into a relationship.
It is a tough question. Sometimes what has been "non negotiable" with one partner, with another hasn't seemed to be such an issue.
Another thing is that even with the same person/partner(s), what is negotiable and what is not can change over time. Perhaps these things have to do more with how our perception of that person changes over time.
Maybe there are things that, no matter how much you like or love someone, are not negotiable (abuse, infidelity, indifferece, neglect, etc.). And maybe what we sometimes say 'is not to be negotiated', we are just saying it in the spur of the moment, and as situations occur we make decisions as we experience them (even when we have lived similar situations before). Then there is the issue of manipulation - which takes the issue to a darker turn.
So many interesting responses.
Gracias por compartir!
Thanks Chris, great idea. Something a partner and I have been discussing in detail of late.
I (51m US/SE in DE and international for 20+ years) start with "the ways friends treat each other" as a baseline, a friend doesnt lie, steal, or manipulate. Any relationship that does things that are "unfriendly" in this way is over. Then, non-negotiables are pretty easy and work more like needs and boundaries.
Example(s)
Me time and space:
I need solitude to recharge and regroup after the continuious assault of my job, and life in general. I once had a partner who would follow me to the toilet and corner me to talk with me about whatever she wanted; i was a captive audience. This became a boundary because it was quite the violation of my time and space, now nearly 20 years later, I make sure that I have a space for myself in any situation that I can 'retreat' into, if i dont have that, the situation isnt for me.
Non-Accountability:
A pattern I'm attempting to remove from my life is the slippery non-accountability that some folks will push into a situation via transference to some external thing that has no agency in the situation. If we agree on a thing, I will do my part and I expect to trust my partner will do theirs; many times in the past I had to accept a lesser sitaution because of the transfer of accountability to a thing not being done to something not related. Yeah yeah, shit happens, but when it becomes a habbit and i find myself looking at a couple of broken agreements and the person who screwed up isnt owning that screw up, but instead transfering it elsewhere, I get gone like a ghost. Swedish culture in some context may call this "time optimism", and i lump the chronic inability to manage time into this, as it is usually a root cause of the sitution.
Negation of Experience:
I have had some gnarly personal experiences that sent me home with a CPTSD dignosis and a head full of frustration. Many times when I've shared my experiences, it has been negated, usually with thought terminating cliches intended to get me to question myself, vaules and actions. I used to enjoy fighting these people when i was younger and more foolish, now i simply drop those fuckers like the hot turds they are.
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Again coming from a 20 year old so I’m interested to see if anyone agrees or disagrees. Getting married next summer. It’s scary. But I’ve been with her for over 5 years and I have never wanted or felt someone’s presence more than hers. We perfectly understand each others wants and needs and something we’ve been working on a lot the past 2 years is the idea of percentage in a relationship. It’s not 50/50. I’ve learned that is a ridiculous expectation from either side. It’s more, I get home from work and she is at a 10% overall. That means I have to come up with the other 90%, even if I had a tough day too. And since I’m willing to do that she is willing to do the same when I am at 10%. But when we are both at 10% we have to figure out how to function at 20% and still love, respect, and care for each other.
Besides the obvious infidelity, lying etc.
All relationships have arguments and that’s fair. We all have our moments where we are upset and can say nasty things. I had been in a previous relationship where when we would get into arguments she would swear and name call. I hated it as it brought bad childhood memories.
When I started dating my partner (now wife), we got into our first “fight” and she was starting to say somethings, I quickly through the “Time Out” sign.
I explained to her that disagreements were ok but we needed rules.
For me I did Not want to be in a relationship where nasty name calling or swearing at the other person was acceptable. This only leads to not dealing with the issue at hand and simply fuels the argument.
She took some time and thought about it and agreed. She told me what she wanted and her triggers and we quickly agreed on our “rules”.
For me this was non negotiable and she agreed it was for her as well.
We do get into disagreements, but I’m thankful that we do it in a respectful manner and we have a great relationship.
Set boundaries, words do hurt and they carry memories.
My experience over the years has taught me the value of curiosity in relationships. If we remain curious about our partner's feelings and thinking, we will avoid reactive responses, which may leave us with regrets for what we say and do to our loved one.
Most of us have heard the saying, "turn the other cheek." This parable is open to different interpretations. My interpretation is that it means a non-reactive response.
A non-reactive response is a more logical and thoughtful response, which leads to much greater intimacy in a relationship. When we are reactive, our thinking shuts down and insults are much more likely to happen. When your loved one is angry at you, I. have found that it worked best when I was curious about what I did that hurt him so much and how can I do better.
Not being up for adjustment or forgiveness is a no go for me. In a loving relationship, once deep caring has been established, the primary consideration should be the love - so that problems become secondary - in the sense that listening and caring for concerns and being honest with each other become primary. This way, you care for the love.
My reflexive response is nothing. At this point in my life (I’m almost 50), after many failed relationships,
I feel very strongly that if I were with the right person, I’d want to work through whatever problems arise.