A little early this month, cause I’m gonna be slammed in a day or two. Concrete pour was today. Framing starts Friday. As always, use this space to ask questions of me or each other, throw out ideas, whatever. Question to get things started: How should a decent society deal with adult, consensual sex work? Is it inherently, unavoidably exploitative? Or should adults be able to do whatever they choose to make a living? Are there good, non-emotional arguments against it?
A little anecdote from someone close to me (recently published in the Sydney Morning Herald Letters section):
"Sex work got me through a difficult time after my second child was born. I couldn’t find a local job that worked with the limited days daycare had available and school pick-up timing. I did, however, find work at a mature-aged brothel on Sydney’s lower north shore. The ladies were lovely and many were in a similar situation to my own. Many women were married and the partner knew. It wasn’t glamorous, but it was good money and I was able to converse with actual adults and make the after-school pick-ups.
After a year, I went back to university to complete a master’s degree in nursing. Sex work gave me money, sanity, a better relationship with my husband and a deeper compassion for men and women. I’m a registered nurse now and I credit sex work with giving me the confidence and understanding to talk and relate to just about any patient. Unfortunately, due to stigma, it remains an uncredited part of my life."
Here’s an interesting concept for a YouTube channel. Watching music videos with tribal people from Sindh, Pakistan. It’s pretty fascinating to see the reactions. Music definitely unites people! https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GRzh0SAJmig
Chris mentioned recently on a ROMA about radical leftist talking about male breastfeeding. I consider myself a radical buthave never heard of such a thing until now. I would love if he could post some sources in next his brain dump. I would love to follow the thread on these so-called leftists. I have feeling his algorithm is feeding him false information about left-wing ideas(right wing channels trying to gaslight liberal leaning people) or the most unhinged type of left wing radicals that the majority of actual radicals don't even know exist. I don't think Lenin or Karl Marx even talked about male breastfeeding LOL.
I’m not sure I live in a “decent” society but much like choosing to have a non-traditional/non-monogamous relationship, sex work simply requires more conversation, honesty, and effort than other types of work to make it safe and ethical and sustainable.
Most of the work we do is exploitative that’s simply the nature of the game. Somehow we draw the line at exploiting our naked bodies or exploiting other people’s desire, it just seems like this stems from religious shame and conditioning.
All debates such as... is porn bad, sex work, etc?
...are framed within the context of capitalist structures which compartmentalize, dehumanize, and create systems of manufactured abundance and scarcity. It’s this way to maximize the leverage of the human will, for maximum results towards... insert…. human endeavor.
Much of what most people point to as ethical problems with sex work for example, are based on power imbalances inherent to flawed capitalist structures.
Porn for example, many will call bad in one context, and perfectly fine in another; like if made by women for women, or by a married couple for themselves and no one else.
So porn itself is not inherently bad, while the context in which it’s made and sold is potentially unethical, but that can be said about anything.
Sex work has been called the "oldest profession" so it could even be considered pre capitalism perhaps. But there are some power imbalances innate in nature, like men being physically able to over power women, often committing heinous acts of rape as a mating strategy, thus creating the need for perhaps the second oldest profession, a pimp.
Sex work has existed as far back as we were living in caves in a barter system, and some could even argue is still practiced today every day, by wives with their husbands, who arguably barter sex on demand routinely for a happy marriage. Most women, due to a whole host of factors, such as mechanical physiology, and their ovulation cycles differing so considerably, time wise and hormonally, with male sperm and testosterone production; aren't generally on average, in the mood for RECREATIONAL sex, quite like most men are.
It’s been said women need a reason to have sex, while men just need a place, or for the more discerning gentleman, a reason NOT TO have sex.
To be a woman is to be wrestling with and bartering with your sex appeal in one context or another all day everyday, in so many explicit and implicit ways. Will this man kill me for it, or will this man buy me a drink or hire me for it and nothing else? Or, is this man the one I end up building most of my life and kids around with it?
“Sex work” in the grander context, is quite frankly what it is to be a woman for a significant portion of most women’s lives.
Most men never contend day to day with the dangers and power inherent in being a sexually desirable woman.
As far as people pointing to “selling ones body” as some kind of unethical way of doing business…
What do you call what heavy manual laborers do who are crippled or killed on the job, or athletes with exceptional physical features who play in the NBA? They’re selling their bodies and at great risk of injury that could end a lifelong career pursuit overnight.
Every endeavor comes with it the potential for exploitation, along with the impossibility of screening out every instance of said exploitations.
Most work these days in our “late stage” capitalist system, where minimum wage is still only $7, and billionaires are exploiting everything including our government, can be argued is in fact exploitative.
While now more than ever, sex work has the potential to give women a power that most average men will never have, like making $80k a month with an only fans page, vs in the past; non violently getting some meat from one cave man who has it, to a cave people who don’t, to a simple transaction of $300.
This very forum is run by an author who made his name and money doing yet another form of “sex work”, writing a book with SEX in the title, because it undoubtably and inevitably, SELLS, and always will.
That kind of power has always existed and will continue in numerous contexts until we no longer need or enjoy sex for among other things, procreation, in which case we probably won’t even be able to be classified as anything we recognize as human anymore.
Powerful institutions like the church among others, use sex, the shame around it, and the intense instincts it reliably provokes (second only to perhaps hunger), to control people.
Is sex work bad? Like sex itself, of course not! Just because sex doesn't work for you doesn't mean it cant work for others.
Twain supposedly said... "Censorship is telling a man he can't have a steak just because a baby can't chew it."
If women no longer had to work for a living, do you still think they would choose to do sex work? If their basic needs were met would they still pursue sex work? That's the question I have.
Would anyone work if they didn't have to? From my perspective, the point that your question naturally leads to is that our modern world of needing to work a job to be able to afford to live is what is exploitative. Sex work is no more exploitative or demeaning than any job. So that's a much larger issue. In terms of any concerns with sex work, 99% of any sketchy aspects of sex work, as with so many other areas, are a result of it being forced into the black market.
Let me just put the disclaimer out there that I think if a women wants to do sex work she should be free to pursue that career path. That being said I believe that most women today doing sex work would not if they lived in society that guaranteed them housing, clothing, food, and a free education(including university). Most women who choose to do sex work are doing it cause its lucrative and easy. Most women worldwide who are doing sex work are doing it cause they had no choice and are living in impoverished conditions. In our late stage capitalist society, people have to work 40 hrs a week in stress inducing jobs for low pay so of course sex work becomes an intriguing and lucrative option for the more sexually liberated women amongst us. However, if we had more humane working conditions with pay adjusted for inflation I doubt many women today would continue to do sex work. I think most ppl would prefer to continually develop their intelligence and sell that rather then sell their bodies continually to strangers they have no intimacy with. Lastly, their are plenty of people that would pursue knowledge in STEM fields has hobby if they lived in a society with their basic needs met. Charles Darwin neglected his medical career to pursue biology. Einstein came up with his greatest mathematical theories while working as a patent clerk. Don't generalize all of humanity. Moreover, imagine how much better sex work would be if we lived in a society where only the women who truly loved it were choosing that path. The only way to eliminate that element of coercion that comes when you live in a capitalist society is to provide for people's basic needs. Until then, I bet most people entering sex work just like most ppl who pursue high paying jobs are in it to pay the bills and the high salary.
This video really turned me off of the idea of normalizing sex work as some feminist job:
And yes I know western women aren't experiencing sex work in the same as those in the global south but its seems like such just liberal response to ignore how brutal and exploitative the working conditions are for the rest of world and flip the narrative into some feminist BS when in reality most women who choose sex work aren't really choosing sex work they are just choosing not to starve.
Apparently, women have better sex under socialism and I'm willing to bet the sex trade would be better under socialism as well. Being able to refuse sleeping with the men you find unappealing and not having to worry about homelessness or starvation would definitely make sex work a lot more bearable.
I think this author would be an interesting podcast guest for Chris.
If you abolished sex work to appease all of the people who see it as immoral, what would happen to the demand?
I know a lot of sex workers who are having a good time, the extra money helps them survive ridiculous rent prices in cities like London and New York, and it also gives the gents a breather from their sexless but comfortable and loving marriages.
Polyamory as it is today, is usually not something people of that generation are familiar with. So discreetly seeing a sex worker from time to time is probably the kindest way of fulfilling human bodily desires. You need to have chemistry and excitement. You only live once, so why deny the pleasures of sex when it can be done without anybody getting hurt?
I dont understand everybodys problem with prostitution, other than Christianity still having a stronghold in peoples minds. That, and liberal feminism, which denies women the pleasures of being feminine and sexy if they enjoy being that way.
Sex work exists and people have fun. So what! Both parties benefit from it.
Excellent topic. So long as the sex worker is doing it BY CHOICE, it's just like any other job – and far more honest than some, cos you see exactly what you're buying. They should be protected by the saame laws that protect others: unionised, standard minimum pay and work conditoins. Watch the excellent Danish TV show 'Borgen' for a very evolved look at the issue.
The answer to Chris's questions? I'm not sure. But it brings up questions of my own. Where is the line between sex for favors and prostitution?
At one point in the book Nisa, the hunter-gatherer woman, Nisa, marvels at how all she has to do is spread her legs and she receives gifts such as blankets and ornaments. I wouldn't consider this prostitution as the nature of male/female relationships (along with some male/male and female/female relationships) is inheritently beneficial in varying ways for each partner. Beyond that she knows each of her partners intimately beyond their sexual relationships.
And yet somewhere along this spectrum sex for gifts/social cohesion ends and prostitution begins.
When did prostitution begin? Supposedly it's humanity's first profession. Did it begin with the rise of civilization? What need would drive a hunter-gatherer woman to legitimately prostitute herself when the knowledge of the plant foods and animals allows her to live off the land. Maybe if she was maimed and was unable to maneuver across the land AND lacked close kin, i.e. kids, sisters, brothers, or husbands, to support her? It's more likely when currency itself emerged that prostitution rose to prominence.
Where are their examples of prostitution? I think most would argue in nearly every society existing today. Is this a byproduct of not only capitalism but commerce in general? I'd argue it likely is anywhere commerce/capitalism and a suppression of sex exists.
Chris asked if prostitution is inheritently exploitative. It leads to the question is prostitution defined as a person consensually having sex for financial gain? If so this disregards forced prostitution such as the Japanese forcing many women across Asia (especially China) into prostitution from 1932 to 1945. I suppose one can consider that sexual slavery and thus communism is off the hook, to an extent.
There's no question that capitalism is a leading producer of consensual prostitution. But then again what is considered consensual? If a 16 year old girl is forced into prostitution by a pimp but then later escapes the pimp's grasp but decides to continue on as a sex worker under her own agency, is that consensual? Sapolsky would argue the chain of events and variables that led to that "decision" were inevitable and I tend to agree. I wonder what's the percentage of individuals that were never forced/coerced into prostitution versus those that were. How about those with mental illnesses, traumatic childhoods, or abusive relationships versus those with a "normal" childhood? I am not sure about any of these questions but that's the information I would need to even begin to answer Chris' questions.
The exploitative aspect reminds me of this book I'm reading about slavery, The Palgrave Handbook of Global Slavery Throughout History (it's open source and available for free).
The beginning of slavery in Mesopotamia is fascinating. It's nothing like chattel slavery of the American south.
I'm Mesopotamia slaves were essentially collateral for an incurred debt and not even expected to work.
"Persons held in this way were understood to be pledges (Akk. nipûtu, a “distraint”) for debts to be repaid—parked in the household of a creditor until (someday) redeemed—rather than property whose ownership was unconditionally and permanently transferred."
But eventually having power over an outsider in one's household was too tempting as slowly slaves were able to be "awarded as damages in lawsuits and considered heritable, as shown by inheritance texts (t.upp¯at apl¯uti), dowries, and laws."
Power always finds a way.
It's interesting to consider whether prostitution is inheritently exploitative. But similarly to discussing the influence of a gene, it's pointless to consider it unless one considers the context. Prostitution would be useless in a bonobo society. But I wonder if prostitution can ever not be exploitative in a patriarchal society?
What does science say? There are a few parts of the U.S, where sex work is legal. What are the demographics? Crime rate higher or lower? violent sex crimes higher or lower? domestic violence higher or lower? Years ago, I made the same assessment of marijuana legalization vs. criminal offense. I was persuaded that the science data did not support making weed illegal and started to advocate legalization. I am glad i lived long enough to see it happen. No, it is not perfect. And legal sex work will not have some untoward consequences either. But it will probably be better than the alternatives.
A "decent" society is, I assume, mature, with progressive ideals easily and well-supported. While that could mean all sorts of things, to me it means that sex work is decriminalized, supported legally, and is a valid career or job should one want to pursue such.
I do note that the industry is much larger than is "normally" assumed. Just go onto any website advertising such for men or women and you will see many ads: Tryst and Slixa are among two. And there are also many people who work as such, but they don't consider themselves sex workers.
As well, the industry is far from exploitative. There are many studies and books on the issue, and one set of data, repeated successfully in several US cities, shows that around 90% of sex workers are on their own. The next larger percentage are people who use a market facilitator. That could be an assistant to field phone calls, texts, and emails, or another sex worker. A tiny percentage are women who are stuck with an abusive pimp (see Ric Curtis's work with the John Jay College of Criminal law). The concern abut exploitation, I think, comes from Hollywood's depiction of women choosing to, ir needing to, work in the most visible area, the street, with the ever-present pimp. Such sources as Maggie McNeill note that the industry has always been indoors.
You ask for good, "non-emotional" arguments against sex work, and I have none. And there aren't any, either.
Sex work is not necessarily bound to lead to exploitation and abuse. I agree with Artsugar and Jack Quon on that point. It depends on how much sunlight, the best disinfectant, is allowed to shine on it. Some argue that it intrinsically must exist in the dark, but I don’t know how they know this fact, and there are still too many taboos and puritanical fears around sex in too many societies for anyone to be in a position to claim such knowledge.
My discomfort (not really the right word) with sex work, even though it is the oldest profession, is that there is something off-putting about commodifying sex. The removal of at least one party’s participation in it but for pecuniary gain, no matter the erotic heights and connections that might occasionally exist between sex workers and their clients (although I’d estimate that this happens in the low percentages), smacks ironically, through its reduction of sex to a flat-footed transaction, of a non-economic devaluation of sex and a travesty of its non-religious ecstasies, mysteries, intimacies, and insights.
It’s hard not to think that sex work (generally, mostly) elides the personalities of the people involved, their making of that third electric “thing” together through their combination, independently of the marketplace and it being a “job” (wretch), and that it bowdlerizes the fire-breathing consent and excitement that makes sex hot and deep and fun.
I suspect that that’s a standard objection to sex work to which there are cogent responses. I’ve never found the ones I’ve heard persuasive, but I am willing to be instructed. In any case I’d never begrudge anyone a freely chosen career.
My main concern with this argument is that it conveys a personal, emotional consequence to sex that doesn’t exist for all people or all circumstances. You could say the same thing about cooking, for example, which is in some cases a very intimate gesture and in others is brief and transient. Although sex can be extremely intimate and meaningful, it does not always have to be, and folding the meaning of sex into the conversation about arguments against sex work seems like a slippery slope.
Agreed. I think its beautiful that sex for you, Red Brown, is such a deeply connective and even transcendent experience. But for better or worse, that not reflective of everyone's experience and that's ok. If you consider what most heterosexual women experience in marriages, it's extremely common for male partners to want them to perform sexually even if the woman is not in the mood. Controversial opinion- but I think that many women who are married are doing sex work but it's not paid as well.
Thanks, very well said. I completely agree with you. I didn’t mean to argue against sex work in the same way, say, as those who would seek to ban it or claim it is intrinsically exploitative. But I would argue there is also a danger, albeit to a lesser degree, of a slippery slope in the other direction, insofar as sex that is transactional or just another pedestrian market exchange will, if sufficiently widespread, have the effect of making sex tend to become seen as just another pedestrian market exchange, just as dating apps have frequently been experienced by many users of them in this vein.
As someone who's worked in sw for years, I think there are plenty of ways for it not be exploitative. Namely when workers have agency over their choices of how they engage in the work. And without criminalization, they'd have the legal support to prosecute abusers. I think that the conversation would better serve our society if we took a deeper dive into how coercion and abuse show up in various situations. It may be idealistic of me, but I don't think the work is inherently flawed bc I've experienced customers who were more respectful than anyone I've experienced in my personal civilian life. It's been healing in many ways, though I know that's not the case for everyone. Living in capitalism, it can be really hard for people to find work that will actually pay their bills that doesn't require a 40hr+ commitment.
Just out curiousity, would you say most women who do this work love it? Or is it because of the great pay and lack of better options? Do you think if their basic needs were met (housing,food, clothing, power etc.) and they were provided a free education they would continue to purse this work?
Yes some love it. I'd say more than anything, they enjoy the money and flexibility. I'm sure some would do other things if they had the resources and stability available. But I make 6 figures and work 7-12 days a month maybe. And I can leave to go travel the world and do whatever I want without needing to negotiate time off work an employer. Many swers are neurodivergent and don't want to or can't handle the 40hr/wk grind of capitalism.
It's true, though slightly complicated. Bc I've listened to podcasts with escorts who work in brothels in Australia and they say that they can experience exploitative work conditions where they're only getting 50% of their earning. And the brothel essentially becomes a pimp to scrape their cut off the top of what workers are earning. Though that's basically capitalism as well and I've worked in plenty of strip clubs that have similar exploitative policies. This is why if you are ever faced with the option, most swers prefer decriminalization over legalization. Bc under legalization, you can only work legally in a brothel or similar business. But overall, I agree that when more awareness and education is normalized around an area, the environment hopefully becomes less hospitable for exploitation.
Where I live, sex-work was decimalised in the late 70s, and by all accounts it has been a great (if quiet) success.
https://scarletalliance.org.au/resources/laws/nsw/
https://www.phrp.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2014/10/NB10013.pdf
A little anecdote from someone close to me (recently published in the Sydney Morning Herald Letters section):
"Sex work got me through a difficult time after my second child was born. I couldn’t find a local job that worked with the limited days daycare had available and school pick-up timing. I did, however, find work at a mature-aged brothel on Sydney’s lower north shore. The ladies were lovely and many were in a similar situation to my own. Many women were married and the partner knew. It wasn’t glamorous, but it was good money and I was able to converse with actual adults and make the after-school pick-ups.
After a year, I went back to university to complete a master’s degree in nursing. Sex work gave me money, sanity, a better relationship with my husband and a deeper compassion for men and women. I’m a registered nurse now and I credit sex work with giving me the confidence and understanding to talk and relate to just about any patient. Unfortunately, due to stigma, it remains an uncredited part of my life."
Maybe like most things it becomes disingenuous once it is commodified.
Here’s an interesting concept for a YouTube channel. Watching music videos with tribal people from Sindh, Pakistan. It’s pretty fascinating to see the reactions. Music definitely unites people! https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GRzh0SAJmig
Chris mentioned recently on a ROMA about radical leftist talking about male breastfeeding. I consider myself a radical buthave never heard of such a thing until now. I would love if he could post some sources in next his brain dump. I would love to follow the thread on these so-called leftists. I have feeling his algorithm is feeding him false information about left-wing ideas(right wing channels trying to gaslight liberal leaning people) or the most unhinged type of left wing radicals that the majority of actual radicals don't even know exist. I don't think Lenin or Karl Marx even talked about male breastfeeding LOL.
I’m not sure I live in a “decent” society but much like choosing to have a non-traditional/non-monogamous relationship, sex work simply requires more conversation, honesty, and effort than other types of work to make it safe and ethical and sustainable.
Most of the work we do is exploitative that’s simply the nature of the game. Somehow we draw the line at exploiting our naked bodies or exploiting other people’s desire, it just seems like this stems from religious shame and conditioning.
All debates such as... is porn bad, sex work, etc?
...are framed within the context of capitalist structures which compartmentalize, dehumanize, and create systems of manufactured abundance and scarcity. It’s this way to maximize the leverage of the human will, for maximum results towards... insert…. human endeavor.
Much of what most people point to as ethical problems with sex work for example, are based on power imbalances inherent to flawed capitalist structures.
Porn for example, many will call bad in one context, and perfectly fine in another; like if made by women for women, or by a married couple for themselves and no one else.
So porn itself is not inherently bad, while the context in which it’s made and sold is potentially unethical, but that can be said about anything.
Sex work has been called the "oldest profession" so it could even be considered pre capitalism perhaps. But there are some power imbalances innate in nature, like men being physically able to over power women, often committing heinous acts of rape as a mating strategy, thus creating the need for perhaps the second oldest profession, a pimp.
Sex work has existed as far back as we were living in caves in a barter system, and some could even argue is still practiced today every day, by wives with their husbands, who arguably barter sex on demand routinely for a happy marriage. Most women, due to a whole host of factors, such as mechanical physiology, and their ovulation cycles differing so considerably, time wise and hormonally, with male sperm and testosterone production; aren't generally on average, in the mood for RECREATIONAL sex, quite like most men are.
It’s been said women need a reason to have sex, while men just need a place, or for the more discerning gentleman, a reason NOT TO have sex.
To be a woman is to be wrestling with and bartering with your sex appeal in one context or another all day everyday, in so many explicit and implicit ways. Will this man kill me for it, or will this man buy me a drink or hire me for it and nothing else? Or, is this man the one I end up building most of my life and kids around with it?
“Sex work” in the grander context, is quite frankly what it is to be a woman for a significant portion of most women’s lives.
Most men never contend day to day with the dangers and power inherent in being a sexually desirable woman.
As far as people pointing to “selling ones body” as some kind of unethical way of doing business…
What do you call what heavy manual laborers do who are crippled or killed on the job, or athletes with exceptional physical features who play in the NBA? They’re selling their bodies and at great risk of injury that could end a lifelong career pursuit overnight.
Every endeavor comes with it the potential for exploitation, along with the impossibility of screening out every instance of said exploitations.
Most work these days in our “late stage” capitalist system, where minimum wage is still only $7, and billionaires are exploiting everything including our government, can be argued is in fact exploitative.
While now more than ever, sex work has the potential to give women a power that most average men will never have, like making $80k a month with an only fans page, vs in the past; non violently getting some meat from one cave man who has it, to a cave people who don’t, to a simple transaction of $300.
This very forum is run by an author who made his name and money doing yet another form of “sex work”, writing a book with SEX in the title, because it undoubtably and inevitably, SELLS, and always will.
That kind of power has always existed and will continue in numerous contexts until we no longer need or enjoy sex for among other things, procreation, in which case we probably won’t even be able to be classified as anything we recognize as human anymore.
Powerful institutions like the church among others, use sex, the shame around it, and the intense instincts it reliably provokes (second only to perhaps hunger), to control people.
Is sex work bad? Like sex itself, of course not! Just because sex doesn't work for you doesn't mean it cant work for others.
Twain supposedly said... "Censorship is telling a man he can't have a steak just because a baby can't chew it."
I really appreciate your response- the tie in to the fact that this forum comes off the back of a form of sex work is *chefs kiss*
This has always been a difficult topic for me so this thread is highly enlightening. Thanks Chris and fellow Tangentialists.
If women no longer had to work for a living, do you still think they would choose to do sex work? If their basic needs were met would they still pursue sex work? That's the question I have.
Would anyone work if they didn't have to? From my perspective, the point that your question naturally leads to is that our modern world of needing to work a job to be able to afford to live is what is exploitative. Sex work is no more exploitative or demeaning than any job. So that's a much larger issue. In terms of any concerns with sex work, 99% of any sketchy aspects of sex work, as with so many other areas, are a result of it being forced into the black market.
What makes you say all sex work is a female job?
That doesnt make sense. You do sex work for money. So if you didnt have to, why would you whether you enjoyed it or not?
I know plenty of women who enjoy sex work and the freedoms it gives them. I’m sure nobody would return to HR if they didnt have to.
The only thing people would pursue as work if they had all their life expenses covered, would be arts, sports, humanities. Etc.
Let me just put the disclaimer out there that I think if a women wants to do sex work she should be free to pursue that career path. That being said I believe that most women today doing sex work would not if they lived in society that guaranteed them housing, clothing, food, and a free education(including university). Most women who choose to do sex work are doing it cause its lucrative and easy. Most women worldwide who are doing sex work are doing it cause they had no choice and are living in impoverished conditions. In our late stage capitalist society, people have to work 40 hrs a week in stress inducing jobs for low pay so of course sex work becomes an intriguing and lucrative option for the more sexually liberated women amongst us. However, if we had more humane working conditions with pay adjusted for inflation I doubt many women today would continue to do sex work. I think most ppl would prefer to continually develop their intelligence and sell that rather then sell their bodies continually to strangers they have no intimacy with. Lastly, their are plenty of people that would pursue knowledge in STEM fields has hobby if they lived in a society with their basic needs met. Charles Darwin neglected his medical career to pursue biology. Einstein came up with his greatest mathematical theories while working as a patent clerk. Don't generalize all of humanity. Moreover, imagine how much better sex work would be if we lived in a society where only the women who truly loved it were choosing that path. The only way to eliminate that element of coercion that comes when you live in a capitalist society is to provide for people's basic needs. Until then, I bet most people entering sex work just like most ppl who pursue high paying jobs are in it to pay the bills and the high salary.
This video really turned me off of the idea of normalizing sex work as some feminist job:
https://youtu.be/TsI5-fnnUaM?si=Vhce45fqA2f3FTt0
And yes I know western women aren't experiencing sex work in the same as those in the global south but its seems like such just liberal response to ignore how brutal and exploitative the working conditions are for the rest of world and flip the narrative into some feminist BS when in reality most women who choose sex work aren't really choosing sex work they are just choosing not to starve.
One last thing to add:
https://www.amazon.ca/Women-Have-Better-Under-Socialism/dp/1568588909
Apparently, women have better sex under socialism and I'm willing to bet the sex trade would be better under socialism as well. Being able to refuse sleeping with the men you find unappealing and not having to worry about homelessness or starvation would definitely make sex work a lot more bearable.
I think this author would be an interesting podcast guest for Chris.
If you abolished sex work to appease all of the people who see it as immoral, what would happen to the demand?
I know a lot of sex workers who are having a good time, the extra money helps them survive ridiculous rent prices in cities like London and New York, and it also gives the gents a breather from their sexless but comfortable and loving marriages.
Polyamory as it is today, is usually not something people of that generation are familiar with. So discreetly seeing a sex worker from time to time is probably the kindest way of fulfilling human bodily desires. You need to have chemistry and excitement. You only live once, so why deny the pleasures of sex when it can be done without anybody getting hurt?
I dont understand everybodys problem with prostitution, other than Christianity still having a stronghold in peoples minds. That, and liberal feminism, which denies women the pleasures of being feminine and sexy if they enjoy being that way.
Sex work exists and people have fun. So what! Both parties benefit from it.
I also don’t think we live in a patriarchal
Society in the West.
Excellent topic. So long as the sex worker is doing it BY CHOICE, it's just like any other job – and far more honest than some, cos you see exactly what you're buying. They should be protected by the saame laws that protect others: unionised, standard minimum pay and work conditoins. Watch the excellent Danish TV show 'Borgen' for a very evolved look at the issue.
The answer to Chris's questions? I'm not sure. But it brings up questions of my own. Where is the line between sex for favors and prostitution?
At one point in the book Nisa, the hunter-gatherer woman, Nisa, marvels at how all she has to do is spread her legs and she receives gifts such as blankets and ornaments. I wouldn't consider this prostitution as the nature of male/female relationships (along with some male/male and female/female relationships) is inheritently beneficial in varying ways for each partner. Beyond that she knows each of her partners intimately beyond their sexual relationships.
And yet somewhere along this spectrum sex for gifts/social cohesion ends and prostitution begins.
When did prostitution begin? Supposedly it's humanity's first profession. Did it begin with the rise of civilization? What need would drive a hunter-gatherer woman to legitimately prostitute herself when the knowledge of the plant foods and animals allows her to live off the land. Maybe if she was maimed and was unable to maneuver across the land AND lacked close kin, i.e. kids, sisters, brothers, or husbands, to support her? It's more likely when currency itself emerged that prostitution rose to prominence.
Where are their examples of prostitution? I think most would argue in nearly every society existing today. Is this a byproduct of not only capitalism but commerce in general? I'd argue it likely is anywhere commerce/capitalism and a suppression of sex exists.
Chris asked if prostitution is inheritently exploitative. It leads to the question is prostitution defined as a person consensually having sex for financial gain? If so this disregards forced prostitution such as the Japanese forcing many women across Asia (especially China) into prostitution from 1932 to 1945. I suppose one can consider that sexual slavery and thus communism is off the hook, to an extent.
There's no question that capitalism is a leading producer of consensual prostitution. But then again what is considered consensual? If a 16 year old girl is forced into prostitution by a pimp but then later escapes the pimp's grasp but decides to continue on as a sex worker under her own agency, is that consensual? Sapolsky would argue the chain of events and variables that led to that "decision" were inevitable and I tend to agree. I wonder what's the percentage of individuals that were never forced/coerced into prostitution versus those that were. How about those with mental illnesses, traumatic childhoods, or abusive relationships versus those with a "normal" childhood? I am not sure about any of these questions but that's the information I would need to even begin to answer Chris' questions.
The exploitative aspect reminds me of this book I'm reading about slavery, The Palgrave Handbook of Global Slavery Throughout History (it's open source and available for free).
The beginning of slavery in Mesopotamia is fascinating. It's nothing like chattel slavery of the American south.
I'm Mesopotamia slaves were essentially collateral for an incurred debt and not even expected to work.
"Persons held in this way were understood to be pledges (Akk. nipûtu, a “distraint”) for debts to be repaid—parked in the household of a creditor until (someday) redeemed—rather than property whose ownership was unconditionally and permanently transferred."
But eventually having power over an outsider in one's household was too tempting as slowly slaves were able to be "awarded as damages in lawsuits and considered heritable, as shown by inheritance texts (t.upp¯at apl¯uti), dowries, and laws."
Power always finds a way.
It's interesting to consider whether prostitution is inheritently exploitative. But similarly to discussing the influence of a gene, it's pointless to consider it unless one considers the context. Prostitution would be useless in a bonobo society. But I wonder if prostitution can ever not be exploitative in a patriarchal society?
Do you know the meaning of the word ‘pious’?
Your point?
What does science say? There are a few parts of the U.S, where sex work is legal. What are the demographics? Crime rate higher or lower? violent sex crimes higher or lower? domestic violence higher or lower? Years ago, I made the same assessment of marijuana legalization vs. criminal offense. I was persuaded that the science data did not support making weed illegal and started to advocate legalization. I am glad i lived long enough to see it happen. No, it is not perfect. And legal sex work will not have some untoward consequences either. But it will probably be better than the alternatives.
I don’t mean to oversimplify here… but I feel like you answered your own question when you added the word “consensual”.
If both/all people involved are doing so knowingly and fully under their own will - “society” should remove itself from the equation.
No doubt society doesn’t approve of all my choices, but I don’t approve of most of society”s choices either… so we’re all good.
A "decent" society is, I assume, mature, with progressive ideals easily and well-supported. While that could mean all sorts of things, to me it means that sex work is decriminalized, supported legally, and is a valid career or job should one want to pursue such.
I do note that the industry is much larger than is "normally" assumed. Just go onto any website advertising such for men or women and you will see many ads: Tryst and Slixa are among two. And there are also many people who work as such, but they don't consider themselves sex workers.
As well, the industry is far from exploitative. There are many studies and books on the issue, and one set of data, repeated successfully in several US cities, shows that around 90% of sex workers are on their own. The next larger percentage are people who use a market facilitator. That could be an assistant to field phone calls, texts, and emails, or another sex worker. A tiny percentage are women who are stuck with an abusive pimp (see Ric Curtis's work with the John Jay College of Criminal law). The concern abut exploitation, I think, comes from Hollywood's depiction of women choosing to, ir needing to, work in the most visible area, the street, with the ever-present pimp. Such sources as Maggie McNeill note that the industry has always been indoors.
You ask for good, "non-emotional" arguments against sex work, and I have none. And there aren't any, either.
Sex work is not necessarily bound to lead to exploitation and abuse. I agree with Artsugar and Jack Quon on that point. It depends on how much sunlight, the best disinfectant, is allowed to shine on it. Some argue that it intrinsically must exist in the dark, but I don’t know how they know this fact, and there are still too many taboos and puritanical fears around sex in too many societies for anyone to be in a position to claim such knowledge.
My discomfort (not really the right word) with sex work, even though it is the oldest profession, is that there is something off-putting about commodifying sex. The removal of at least one party’s participation in it but for pecuniary gain, no matter the erotic heights and connections that might occasionally exist between sex workers and their clients (although I’d estimate that this happens in the low percentages), smacks ironically, through its reduction of sex to a flat-footed transaction, of a non-economic devaluation of sex and a travesty of its non-religious ecstasies, mysteries, intimacies, and insights.
It’s hard not to think that sex work (generally, mostly) elides the personalities of the people involved, their making of that third electric “thing” together through their combination, independently of the marketplace and it being a “job” (wretch), and that it bowdlerizes the fire-breathing consent and excitement that makes sex hot and deep and fun.
I suspect that that’s a standard objection to sex work to which there are cogent responses. I’ve never found the ones I’ve heard persuasive, but I am willing to be instructed. In any case I’d never begrudge anyone a freely chosen career.
My main concern with this argument is that it conveys a personal, emotional consequence to sex that doesn’t exist for all people or all circumstances. You could say the same thing about cooking, for example, which is in some cases a very intimate gesture and in others is brief and transient. Although sex can be extremely intimate and meaningful, it does not always have to be, and folding the meaning of sex into the conversation about arguments against sex work seems like a slippery slope.
Agreed. I think its beautiful that sex for you, Red Brown, is such a deeply connective and even transcendent experience. But for better or worse, that not reflective of everyone's experience and that's ok. If you consider what most heterosexual women experience in marriages, it's extremely common for male partners to want them to perform sexually even if the woman is not in the mood. Controversial opinion- but I think that many women who are married are doing sex work but it's not paid as well.
Thanks, very well said. I completely agree with you. I didn’t mean to argue against sex work in the same way, say, as those who would seek to ban it or claim it is intrinsically exploitative. But I would argue there is also a danger, albeit to a lesser degree, of a slippery slope in the other direction, insofar as sex that is transactional or just another pedestrian market exchange will, if sufficiently widespread, have the effect of making sex tend to become seen as just another pedestrian market exchange, just as dating apps have frequently been experienced by many users of them in this vein.
As someone who's worked in sw for years, I think there are plenty of ways for it not be exploitative. Namely when workers have agency over their choices of how they engage in the work. And without criminalization, they'd have the legal support to prosecute abusers. I think that the conversation would better serve our society if we took a deeper dive into how coercion and abuse show up in various situations. It may be idealistic of me, but I don't think the work is inherently flawed bc I've experienced customers who were more respectful than anyone I've experienced in my personal civilian life. It's been healing in many ways, though I know that's not the case for everyone. Living in capitalism, it can be really hard for people to find work that will actually pay their bills that doesn't require a 40hr+ commitment.
Just out curiousity, would you say most women who do this work love it? Or is it because of the great pay and lack of better options? Do you think if their basic needs were met (housing,food, clothing, power etc.) and they were provided a free education they would continue to purse this work?
Yes some love it. I'd say more than anything, they enjoy the money and flexibility. I'm sure some would do other things if they had the resources and stability available. But I make 6 figures and work 7-12 days a month maybe. And I can leave to go travel the world and do whatever I want without needing to negotiate time off work an employer. Many swers are neurodivergent and don't want to or can't handle the 40hr/wk grind of capitalism.
Yes, I had a feeling this was the case. How are the gigolos doing? Do they make six figures too? Do they love their work?
I don't speak for all sex workers. You'd have to do some research on makes swers.
Like so many things it seems like exploitation, abuse, and dangers regarding sex work happen because it exists in the darkness of society.
It's true, though slightly complicated. Bc I've listened to podcasts with escorts who work in brothels in Australia and they say that they can experience exploitative work conditions where they're only getting 50% of their earning. And the brothel essentially becomes a pimp to scrape their cut off the top of what workers are earning. Though that's basically capitalism as well and I've worked in plenty of strip clubs that have similar exploitative policies. This is why if you are ever faced with the option, most swers prefer decriminalization over legalization. Bc under legalization, you can only work legally in a brothel or similar business. But overall, I agree that when more awareness and education is normalized around an area, the environment hopefully becomes less hospitable for exploitation.