Tony grew up in an intentional spiritual community in West Virginia that many called a hippie commune. His new book, Red, White & Blind looks at how censorship, propaganda, and disinformation are woven into American history and are becoming increasingly corrosive in the digital age.
Diagnostically speaking, I agree hugely with Brasunas. But the really big problems of the Western world, escpecially the US, are not abortion & the other things he mentions. They're the multiple realities of a growing wealth gap, a collapsing environment & a callous, warmongering elite. And that's why the media deceives us: to distract us with secondary issues.
Just a few nitpicks:
1) Sweden did Not do well during the pandemic. At all. It had Far more deaths, per capita, than its immediate neighbours (& your neighbourhood is what counts). Check the numbers.
2) “Media consciousness” may be desirable, but 99% of people will Never practice it. It’s a pipedream (though I practise it myself).
3) CR: “In Spain, ‘propaganda’ is just what people call advertising.” It thought it was “publicidad”. Anyway, propaganda hasn’t always had a negative connotation, even in English. If the Spanish all viewed Coca-Cola advertising as skeptically as you imply, advertising wouldn’t be effective in Spain, would it? But is *Is*. How's that possible?
1) Hard to know. According to these graphs, from Johns Hopkins, Sweden seems to be about in the middle of the pack (Europe) in terms of total deaths per 100,000 people.
2) Agree. It's a luxury. Who the fuck has time to sit around "doing their own research" all day?
3) Publicidad is another word for it. Also anuncios. I don't think I said, "In Spain, the ONLY word for advertising is propaganda," did I? https://www.sinonimosonline.com/propaganda/
I don't know how effective advertising is in Spain compared to other countries. I don't even know how such a thing would be measured, but I'd love to know. Seems like it would tell us something interesting about how skeptical different cultures are to these messages, which seems like it might be a measure of cultural health and personal self-respect.
I agree about distractions. I think the Romans called it "bread and circuses."
Your exact words are "In Spain, propaganda is just what Spanish people call advertising."
Granted, you were talking off the top of your head, impromptu. But it begs the question of why advertisers spend good money to advertise in Spain if people see through it so well. Obviously advertising works just fine there.
I live in Europe & can't agree that people here are generally any more clued in to the way they're manipulated by the media (see Ukraine war) than are Americans. I'm aware that's a terrible indictment of Europeans, but it's just true.
Yeah, I sure as hell don't have time to listen to 173 different sources on one thing, though you do quickly learn who's Not reliable. I try to say "Look, I don't know everything about what goes on, but it does seem to me that ...". And to be able to say how I got that impression.
Sweden may be in the middle of the pack Europe-wide. But it sure as hell isn't in the middle of the pack Europe-wide in terms of Wealth & Health-Care resources. The Covid Czar in Sweden was an infectious-disease specialist named Anders Tegnell. He dictated policy (the law designed it that way, to keep such decisions out of the hands of politicians). Lena Einhorn, a Swedish virologist, told the BBC back in 2020: "Tegnell doesn't know what he's *Talking* about" (a polite way of saying he's full of shit). The interviewer said "But Sweden isn't doing nearly as badly as Italy, Spain or Belgium". Einhorn said "Sweden's nothing Like those countries in terms of resources. And it's nowhere Near them. It's surrounded by Denmark, Norway & Finland. Those are the countries it should be compared with."
So let's do that (Sweden pop. 10.4M // Denmark pop. 5.9M // Norway pop. 5.4M // Finland pop. 5.5M)
Anyone else find it funny how Chris always credits this unnamed source for the idea, “nostalgia is memory without detail”? Can you just claim this as one of your own philosophies, Chris, so I can stop saying, “I heard this saying on this guy’s podcast who heard it from someone else”? 😂
Ha! As Marie Antoinette's dressmaker is often credited with saying, "There is nothing new except what's been forgotten." But I'm sure she just heard someone else say that....
I love the idea of the balanced media diet and of travel to get a range of perspectives. It's all about coming face to face with reality instead of only hearing about it through a filter.
The thing Chris said in the intro about the Buddhist monk talking about being trapped by desire, I think it's a classic mistake of many spiritual followers, because sex and food and other pleasures are not necessarily trapping, just as following a prescribed spiritual path is not necessarily liberating.
The common cold can knock anyone down after taking care of themselves is put on the back burner and “good” decisions lose priority. Easier said then done, but people need eduction, discipline and sacrifice! Sleep is important; any disruption (stress of a looming presentation, mouth breathing, alcohol...) can be detrimental to the immune system. People need sunlight, fresh air, love, to cut the excessive sugar, alcohol and question hatred for those not following the masses! But some people don’t like hearing “come on, you could do better!” People survive Ebola largely based on the immune response, a healthy response may include excreting tainted blood! That takes some work and a couch potato that doesn’t see the light of day could not handle what some kids in Africa go through!
Many were likely asymptomatic with covid but eventually succumbed as a result of not being as proactive as possible. Once again, easier said then done. I’m writing this when I’m tired, high and should be in bed already..But that’s life! It takes a constant battle between pleasure and work to keep the human spirit optimized!
Maybe we all need to get knocked on the ass once in awhile to remember how easy it can all be taken away!
Tony's casual comparison between the way China and Australia handled, and are still handling Covid. It certainly wasn't a case of looking north and seeing what the Chinese were doing to inform our own response. It was a continued conversation with people that actually use the scientific method and an attempt to balance all aspects of life, freedom and community. All the while playing defence against the propaganda coming from the Murdoch press.
Sorry to get so defensive, but it irks me that through a couple of silly memes and obviously biased "news" articles, Australia has this reputation of being as authoritarian as China.
I am human after all. It was one throw away line from Tony in an hour long conversation that stuck out to me haha. I guess this proves the 1 negative to 7 positives point being made as well!
As usual, a thought provoking episode. Love your work.
Just awful. One of those insufferable self-described "classical liberals" who thinks he's smarter than everyone else and can't admit he's just another typical grandiose run-of-the-mill libertarian who dOeS hIS OWn rESeaRCh! On the plus side, it's been a very long time since Chis has had a clunker this bad. Hope it's an aberration, not a trend. Cheers!
His "Freedom of Movement" argument that you smartly pushed back on for one. He also said that COVID lockdowns were really about governments scaring people to grab more power. He then downplayed Sweden's lax response to COVID implying that since it had similar death rates to some other European countries that its response was just fine. Tell that to the people who died. I’m sure they’re happy they died for “freedom.” There was also a definite undercurrent of free speech absolutism in his addressing of censorship. In his championing of not censoring the likes of Alex Jones, he conveniently forgets his own argument of being aware of the NARRATIVE being put forth by people on an issue. Yes, people like Alex Jones should not be censored, but they should also not be listened to credibly about ANY topic. Anti-COVID policy people are usually anti-Liberal, anti-Democrat, or simply contrarians and not approaching the topic with any type of scientific scrutiny. They’re simply reactionaries. He also criticized democracy and science as being “filled with bad actors and misinformation.” Really? So you can't trust ANYONE? But, ah, HE knows best. OK. He also says he’s “politically homeless.” Really? Anytime someone claims to be in the middle like this, politically independent if you will, they are really trying to be smarter than everyone else. “I see the failing of both sides, but you all are too stupid to see it.” Seems to me that you’re either on the side of truth and reality or you are not. I don’t think he is. Progressives have their failings, true, but we're still the most pro-human people on the planet. Truth matters and the best way we have to find it is through the scientific method. Just because some COVID models were wildly wrong does not mean science is a corrupt failure. That's far too simplistic. But HE knows better since he's skeptical of the skeptics. I bet he thinks the threat of climate change is overblown, global fascism is not a real threat, and the left is "too woke." How do I know? Those are all Classical Liberal positions, which he identifies with. Hope this clarifies. Love your work, Chris! This one just rubbed me the wrong way. Thanks.
I don't really have a dog in this fight (other than being protective of my guests), but I'd ask you to look at the absolutism and hyperbole in your own words. For example:
"Anytime someone claims to be in the middle like this, politically independent if you will, they are really trying to be smarter than everyone else. “I see the failing of both sides, but you all are too stupid to see it.” Seems to me that you’re either on the side of truth and reality or you are not. I don’t think he is. Progressives have their failings, true, but we're still the most pro-human people on the planet."
So the group you happen to be in is comprised of "the most pro-human people on the planet," huh? Wow. Any any time someone claims to be unaligned with any political agenda, they're lying and claiming superiority? That seems pretty harsh. Don't most of us fall into that group? For example, I think some right-wing positions make sense (most don't), some left-wing positions are ridiculous (most aren't), and neither group represents many of my beliefs about how the world should be. So am I "trying to be smarter than everyone else"? I don't think so.
You blame him for being "skeptical of the skeptics," but you're skeptical of the skeptic of the skeptics!
I rarely agree 100% with anyone (podcast guest or not), but I wish we could disagree without assuming the worst about where people are coming from.
Let me put it another way....nobody is "politically unaligned." We don't live in a vacuum. This is the core myth of the prevalence of independent voters. There's precious few of them. In polls. people SAY they're independent (or politically unaligned), but they are not. We all have certain priorities and those align closer to the left or the right as we think of these labels today. They just do. Moderates are rarely moderate. They just want to THINK they are above the fray (this is where someone thinking they're smarter comes in). You mused about whether to call yourself a feminist anymore, as I understand it, because certain reactionary man-hating elements have crept into the label that you don't want to be associated with. That's valid. I get that, but, for me, I don't want to let fringe people dictate what I call myself. I don't think we should let fringe elements of any group we're in define labels and boundaries for us on a personal level. Tony disassociates himself from progressives for similar reasons and pivots to "classical liberal." Why let the inmates run the asylum? Reclaim words and define them for yourself. As a progressive there are plenty of people who also call themselves progressive who I think do more harm to the group than good. I don't say they're not REAL progressives, I just say, "here's how I define the term and it doesn't include their input." Since the rise of Trump, individual Republicans have failed to define what it means to be Republican and let the worst elements of the party take over the term and define it for everyone in the worst possible way. I certainly don't think that you think you're smarter than everyone else, but Tony seems overconfident he has everything figured out. That's what I'm reacting to. But I could be wrong or was just in a bad mood when listening to the podcast. Maybe if I talked to him in person or re-listened to the whole thing again I would change my mind. I'm just trying to share my admittedly limited first reaction to the podcast. Hope this clarifies, but I probably made it worse. LOL. I appreciate your engagement on this. Thanks, Chris. Peace.
No doubt, it's very challenging to have a coherent conversation when words keep changing their meaning. Since Reagan, "conservative" has meant "radical," for example. They don't want to conserve, they want to tear down and destroy. What people call "progressive" in the US would be considered center-right in most of Europe. Lincoln and the Republicans in the 1860s were the anti-slavery party. Now, they're the ones making harder for black people to vote. Liberal used to mean open-minded, but now you're transphobic if you don't think 200 pound people with penises should be in women's prisons. When language becomes this slippery, it's nearly impossible to think/speak clearly. Strange days.
Thank you Chris for suffering through pushing a “30 lb baby through your intellectual vagina” so that less people have to suffer the consequences of conventional relationships and modern civilization. You are so eloquent with your words.
For Chris so loved the world, he birthed his only begotten 30lb son...
I just had to drop a note to say this podcast was well worth it for me! Excellent conversation gentlemen. The sticks and stones analogy near the end is bang on. That seems to be a thing that has been lost along the way.
"Flooded with artificially high levels of dopamine triggered by external substances, the brains own mechanisms of dopamine secretion become lazy. they stop functioning at anywhere near full capacity, relying on the artificial boosters instead. only long months of abstinence allow the intrinsic machinery of dopamine production to regenerate and in the meantime the addict will experience extremes of physical and emotional exhaustion" Unknown
Diagnostically speaking, I agree hugely with Brasunas. But the really big problems of the Western world, escpecially the US, are not abortion & the other things he mentions. They're the multiple realities of a growing wealth gap, a collapsing environment & a callous, warmongering elite. And that's why the media deceives us: to distract us with secondary issues.
Just a few nitpicks:
1) Sweden did Not do well during the pandemic. At all. It had Far more deaths, per capita, than its immediate neighbours (& your neighbourhood is what counts). Check the numbers.
2) “Media consciousness” may be desirable, but 99% of people will Never practice it. It’s a pipedream (though I practise it myself).
3) CR: “In Spain, ‘propaganda’ is just what people call advertising.” It thought it was “publicidad”. Anyway, propaganda hasn’t always had a negative connotation, even in English. If the Spanish all viewed Coca-Cola advertising as skeptically as you imply, advertising wouldn’t be effective in Spain, would it? But is *Is*. How's that possible?
https://www.sinonimosonline.com/publicidad/
1) Hard to know. According to these graphs, from Johns Hopkins, Sweden seems to be about in the middle of the pack (Europe) in terms of total deaths per 100,000 people.
2) Agree. It's a luxury. Who the fuck has time to sit around "doing their own research" all day?
3) Publicidad is another word for it. Also anuncios. I don't think I said, "In Spain, the ONLY word for advertising is propaganda," did I? https://www.sinonimosonline.com/propaganda/
I don't know how effective advertising is in Spain compared to other countries. I don't even know how such a thing would be measured, but I'd love to know. Seems like it would tell us something interesting about how skeptical different cultures are to these messages, which seems like it might be a measure of cultural health and personal self-respect.
I agree about distractions. I think the Romans called it "bread and circuses."
Your exact words are "In Spain, propaganda is just what Spanish people call advertising."
Granted, you were talking off the top of your head, impromptu. But it begs the question of why advertisers spend good money to advertise in Spain if people see through it so well. Obviously advertising works just fine there.
I live in Europe & can't agree that people here are generally any more clued in to the way they're manipulated by the media (see Ukraine war) than are Americans. I'm aware that's a terrible indictment of Europeans, but it's just true.
Yeah, I sure as hell don't have time to listen to 173 different sources on one thing, though you do quickly learn who's Not reliable. I try to say "Look, I don't know everything about what goes on, but it does seem to me that ...". And to be able to say how I got that impression.
Sweden may be in the middle of the pack Europe-wide. But it sure as hell isn't in the middle of the pack Europe-wide in terms of Wealth & Health-Care resources. The Covid Czar in Sweden was an infectious-disease specialist named Anders Tegnell. He dictated policy (the law designed it that way, to keep such decisions out of the hands of politicians). Lena Einhorn, a Swedish virologist, told the BBC back in 2020: "Tegnell doesn't know what he's *Talking* about" (a polite way of saying he's full of shit). The interviewer said "But Sweden isn't doing nearly as badly as Italy, Spain or Belgium". Einhorn said "Sweden's nothing Like those countries in terms of resources. And it's nowhere Near them. It's surrounded by Denmark, Norway & Finland. Those are the countries it should be compared with."
So let's do that (Sweden pop. 10.4M // Denmark pop. 5.9M // Norway pop. 5.4M // Finland pop. 5.5M)
https://ourworldindata.org/covid-deaths?country=NOR~SWE~FIN~DNK#what-is-the-cumulative-number-of-confirmed-deaths
Anyone else find it funny how Chris always credits this unnamed source for the idea, “nostalgia is memory without detail”? Can you just claim this as one of your own philosophies, Chris, so I can stop saying, “I heard this saying on this guy’s podcast who heard it from someone else”? 😂
Ha! As Marie Antoinette's dressmaker is often credited with saying, "There is nothing new except what's been forgotten." But I'm sure she just heard someone else say that....
I love the idea of the balanced media diet and of travel to get a range of perspectives. It's all about coming face to face with reality instead of only hearing about it through a filter.
The thing Chris said in the intro about the Buddhist monk talking about being trapped by desire, I think it's a classic mistake of many spiritual followers, because sex and food and other pleasures are not necessarily trapping, just as following a prescribed spiritual path is not necessarily liberating.
Great conversation.
The common cold can knock anyone down after taking care of themselves is put on the back burner and “good” decisions lose priority. Easier said then done, but people need eduction, discipline and sacrifice! Sleep is important; any disruption (stress of a looming presentation, mouth breathing, alcohol...) can be detrimental to the immune system. People need sunlight, fresh air, love, to cut the excessive sugar, alcohol and question hatred for those not following the masses! But some people don’t like hearing “come on, you could do better!” People survive Ebola largely based on the immune response, a healthy response may include excreting tainted blood! That takes some work and a couch potato that doesn’t see the light of day could not handle what some kids in Africa go through!
Many were likely asymptomatic with covid but eventually succumbed as a result of not being as proactive as possible. Once again, easier said then done. I’m writing this when I’m tired, high and should be in bed already..But that’s life! It takes a constant battle between pleasure and work to keep the human spirit optimized!
Maybe we all need to get knocked on the ass once in awhile to remember how easy it can all be taken away!
Cheers everyone!
Another misrepresentation of what actually happened in Australia the last few years. A meme that never gets fact checked.
Could you be more specific?
Tony's casual comparison between the way China and Australia handled, and are still handling Covid. It certainly wasn't a case of looking north and seeing what the Chinese were doing to inform our own response. It was a continued conversation with people that actually use the scientific method and an attempt to balance all aspects of life, freedom and community. All the while playing defence against the propaganda coming from the Murdoch press.
Sorry to get so defensive, but it irks me that through a couple of silly memes and obviously biased "news" articles, Australia has this reputation of being as authoritarian as China.
I am human after all. It was one throw away line from Tony in an hour long conversation that stuck out to me haha. I guess this proves the 1 negative to 7 positives point being made as well!
As usual, a thought provoking episode. Love your work.
Just awful. One of those insufferable self-described "classical liberals" who thinks he's smarter than everyone else and can't admit he's just another typical grandiose run-of-the-mill libertarian who dOeS hIS OWn rESeaRCh! On the plus side, it's been a very long time since Chis has had a clunker this bad. Hope it's an aberration, not a trend. Cheers!
Specifics?
His "Freedom of Movement" argument that you smartly pushed back on for one. He also said that COVID lockdowns were really about governments scaring people to grab more power. He then downplayed Sweden's lax response to COVID implying that since it had similar death rates to some other European countries that its response was just fine. Tell that to the people who died. I’m sure they’re happy they died for “freedom.” There was also a definite undercurrent of free speech absolutism in his addressing of censorship. In his championing of not censoring the likes of Alex Jones, he conveniently forgets his own argument of being aware of the NARRATIVE being put forth by people on an issue. Yes, people like Alex Jones should not be censored, but they should also not be listened to credibly about ANY topic. Anti-COVID policy people are usually anti-Liberal, anti-Democrat, or simply contrarians and not approaching the topic with any type of scientific scrutiny. They’re simply reactionaries. He also criticized democracy and science as being “filled with bad actors and misinformation.” Really? So you can't trust ANYONE? But, ah, HE knows best. OK. He also says he’s “politically homeless.” Really? Anytime someone claims to be in the middle like this, politically independent if you will, they are really trying to be smarter than everyone else. “I see the failing of both sides, but you all are too stupid to see it.” Seems to me that you’re either on the side of truth and reality or you are not. I don’t think he is. Progressives have their failings, true, but we're still the most pro-human people on the planet. Truth matters and the best way we have to find it is through the scientific method. Just because some COVID models were wildly wrong does not mean science is a corrupt failure. That's far too simplistic. But HE knows better since he's skeptical of the skeptics. I bet he thinks the threat of climate change is overblown, global fascism is not a real threat, and the left is "too woke." How do I know? Those are all Classical Liberal positions, which he identifies with. Hope this clarifies. Love your work, Chris! This one just rubbed me the wrong way. Thanks.
I don't really have a dog in this fight (other than being protective of my guests), but I'd ask you to look at the absolutism and hyperbole in your own words. For example:
"Anytime someone claims to be in the middle like this, politically independent if you will, they are really trying to be smarter than everyone else. “I see the failing of both sides, but you all are too stupid to see it.” Seems to me that you’re either on the side of truth and reality or you are not. I don’t think he is. Progressives have their failings, true, but we're still the most pro-human people on the planet."
So the group you happen to be in is comprised of "the most pro-human people on the planet," huh? Wow. Any any time someone claims to be unaligned with any political agenda, they're lying and claiming superiority? That seems pretty harsh. Don't most of us fall into that group? For example, I think some right-wing positions make sense (most don't), some left-wing positions are ridiculous (most aren't), and neither group represents many of my beliefs about how the world should be. So am I "trying to be smarter than everyone else"? I don't think so.
You blame him for being "skeptical of the skeptics," but you're skeptical of the skeptic of the skeptics!
I rarely agree 100% with anyone (podcast guest or not), but I wish we could disagree without assuming the worst about where people are coming from.
Let me put it another way....nobody is "politically unaligned." We don't live in a vacuum. This is the core myth of the prevalence of independent voters. There's precious few of them. In polls. people SAY they're independent (or politically unaligned), but they are not. We all have certain priorities and those align closer to the left or the right as we think of these labels today. They just do. Moderates are rarely moderate. They just want to THINK they are above the fray (this is where someone thinking they're smarter comes in). You mused about whether to call yourself a feminist anymore, as I understand it, because certain reactionary man-hating elements have crept into the label that you don't want to be associated with. That's valid. I get that, but, for me, I don't want to let fringe people dictate what I call myself. I don't think we should let fringe elements of any group we're in define labels and boundaries for us on a personal level. Tony disassociates himself from progressives for similar reasons and pivots to "classical liberal." Why let the inmates run the asylum? Reclaim words and define them for yourself. As a progressive there are plenty of people who also call themselves progressive who I think do more harm to the group than good. I don't say they're not REAL progressives, I just say, "here's how I define the term and it doesn't include their input." Since the rise of Trump, individual Republicans have failed to define what it means to be Republican and let the worst elements of the party take over the term and define it for everyone in the worst possible way. I certainly don't think that you think you're smarter than everyone else, but Tony seems overconfident he has everything figured out. That's what I'm reacting to. But I could be wrong or was just in a bad mood when listening to the podcast. Maybe if I talked to him in person or re-listened to the whole thing again I would change my mind. I'm just trying to share my admittedly limited first reaction to the podcast. Hope this clarifies, but I probably made it worse. LOL. I appreciate your engagement on this. Thanks, Chris. Peace.
No doubt, it's very challenging to have a coherent conversation when words keep changing their meaning. Since Reagan, "conservative" has meant "radical," for example. They don't want to conserve, they want to tear down and destroy. What people call "progressive" in the US would be considered center-right in most of Europe. Lincoln and the Republicans in the 1860s were the anti-slavery party. Now, they're the ones making harder for black people to vote. Liberal used to mean open-minded, but now you're transphobic if you don't think 200 pound people with penises should be in women's prisons. When language becomes this slippery, it's nearly impossible to think/speak clearly. Strange days.
Thank you Chris for suffering through pushing a “30 lb baby through your intellectual vagina” so that less people have to suffer the consequences of conventional relationships and modern civilization. You are so eloquent with your words.
For Chris so loved the world, he birthed his only begotten 30lb son...
Operation Mockingbird: the new version is TNI Trusted News Initiative
https://cbc.radio-canada.ca/en/media-centre/trusted-news-initiative-plan-disinformation-coronavirus
CBC the propaganda ( bullshit ) arm of the Trudeau Gov.
I just had to drop a note to say this podcast was well worth it for me! Excellent conversation gentlemen. The sticks and stones analogy near the end is bang on. That seems to be a thing that has been lost along the way.
You have not drank since August. That is awesome brother. Congratulations.
"Flooded with artificially high levels of dopamine triggered by external substances, the brains own mechanisms of dopamine secretion become lazy. they stop functioning at anywhere near full capacity, relying on the artificial boosters instead. only long months of abstinence allow the intrinsic machinery of dopamine production to regenerate and in the meantime the addict will experience extremes of physical and emotional exhaustion" Unknown
"Modern democracy was invented under the assumption that the average person is a selfish and delusional piece of shit" Mark Manson
For your new post idea about agreeing with people that you don’t agree with maybe call it. “Stupid. Not stupid.” Or “Foolish. Not Foolish.” Etc.
Nice. How bout “Not My Precedent” or “Common Ground” or “Understanding Idiots”
Allen Watts “Being in the Way” is a podcast his son puts on. Only be around 2 years so you don’t have a lot to catch up on.